hoisting sail

[Roland of Macatawa]

Bruce,

Thank you for the photograph of your 2:1 throat halyard configuration.
I notice the 180 degree twist at the uphaul block.
Is that purposeful or accidental?
Seems it would perhaps aid alignment at the expense of friction.

I will be experimenting with an alternate uphaul turning block, other than the factory cheek block.
When next at the boat, I will check relative roughness on two sides of the sail track.
The extend ring on the gooseneck is not bent but laterally aligned with the gooseneck slide.
Or course it is aft of the slide itself which is in the track.

I will probably make the luff downhaul a permanent fixed one, as you have.
Then adjust luff tension with the halyards.
That will free up a block and cleat for use with the lazy jack halyard which I am experimenting with.
Need to raise the sail, on the trailer the next time it is not windy, to determine the exact proper downhaul position.
So that the boom is positioned to be just a little ways off the gallows.

Best Regards, Roland

[jdklaser]

Remember to lift with the legs.  Use the biggest and strongest muscle group.  Like lifting a sailboard sail. 

[bruce]

No, Roland, the twist was not my doing. I have straightened it out in the past, and overhauled the line, but it has come back at times. If it annoys me enough, I put a non-swiveling block in.

Twist or not, the halyard running from the eye strap to port, to the block, and back to the cheek block will form a centered V. If you think the extended ring on the slide is too far aft, you could bend it forward to be better aligned. A close examination of the scarring could yield some clues.

[Roland of Macatawa]

Bruce,

For your 2:1 purchase throat halyard, how is the turning block on the top side of the gaff gooseneck attached?
How have you kept it all (gooseneck side with extended ring, shackle, and block) compact enough to keep it under the mast while folded down?
Do you have a customized gooseneck configuration?

I'm thinking that if I need to rework my throat halyard I might as well change it to a 2:1 setup while doing so.

Thanks for allowing me to learn from your experience.
Regards, Roland

[bruce]

Originally, with the shackle that came with the Harken 40mm Carbo block I have. Com-Pac set up the 2:1, at my request, before delivery. In the first photo, with the mast down, the block and the extended ring are well below the hinge.

The extended ring having issues on some boats, including mine, I modified my gooseneck in 2015. The slide has been replaced with the same slide used on my boom, and the halyard is attached with a 3/16" soft shackle. No more bent extended ring cocking the slide in the mast track, no more scarring on the gaff. At first, it seemed that the ring on the top would be best, but I soon realized that the the ring would be crushed as the extended ring had been.

I use a short length of Dyneema chafing sleeve to keep the shackle tight to the gooseneck, not so much for chafing. Not sure it's necessary, and chafing hasn't been an issue. I've seen other means of lashing the halyard block to the slide without using a soft shackle.

[Roland of Macatawa]

Thanks, Bruce.

That was very helpful.

Regards, Roland

[DanM]

Interesting conversation. I wonder, however, about the wisdom of having a fixed boom downhaul, so you have to depend on the halyard for luff tension on the SunCat. It can be enough of an effort to just get that big sail sail raised all the way, now you are adding the effort of tensioning the luff, too. And the fixed downhaul would have to be in the precise right spot: too high and the sail won't tension, too low and you won't be able to raise the gaff all the way and then the boom won't clear the gallows, a pretty narrow tolerance. Seems wrong to me, on general principles,  to eliminate an element of adjustability. Anyone else have an opinion?

[bruce]

Hey Dan,

Just to be clear, on the PC the boom downhaul isn't fixed, it's made up to a horn cleat on the mast stub track. Dwyer part DH 8410. My downhaul came adjusted from the factory so the boom gooseneck is at the hinge when the sail is raised. I've kept it in that position, although I could adjust it higher or lower if I saw the need.
https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=20&cat1Name=Masts&familyID=35&familyName=DM%2D284+Mast

The downhaul pulls against the throat halyard via the luff, or vice versa. I could raise the throat to some specified height, with the downhaul loose, and then tighten the downhaul. I just find it easier to leave the downhaul set, and tension the luff with my 2:1 throat halyard.

[bruce]

Dan,

I'm satisfied with my system, but I was curious what others who routinely raise their sail with the boom downhaul loose use to determine how high to raise the throat. Com-Pac clearly expects the downhaul to be adjusted frequently on the SC. Unlike the PC, they lead the line so it's handy to the cockpit, and give you a nice cleat Spinlock cleat to use. Roland referred to to the concept of an upstop earlier in this thread.

Before I posted the question here, I thought I'd check prior threads for "tensioning luff." Lots of good content, although the dreaded long pin is often the focus! Here's a couple.
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=4729.0
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=4160.msg30198#msg30198

It seems that just running the throat up 'til it hits the block is what's done. Not very elegant, but I suppose when the downhaul is set the throat gooseneck is pulled free of the cheek block to some extent. Given the damage that many see to the extend ring on the gooseneck slide from the gaff pinching the mast, I would want the throat to be well clear of the cheek block.

[mikehennessy]

Bruce:

My intent is to raise the throat to the proper location without any downhall tension.  Mark the halyard with a permanent black marker where it exits the cleat and use this as my adjustment setting when raising sail.  Will keep me from banging into the turning block.  I usually make two lines, course and fine adjustment (different colors).  Also easy to explain to others in the boat.  "Raise the halyard (or line for newbees) until the black line comes through the cleat."

One must occasionally check against line stretch.  My experience is this generally occurs about the time the marker line is beginning to fade.  I keep 4 different colored permanent markers on-board.

Regards,
Mike

[Andre]

Hi,

I own a PC and an HC, both with original Doyle sails except the PC's had some minor alterations done to remove some bagginess at the gaff.  This MAY have shortened the luff and peak by an inch or so.  I believe I've described the following here before but not in either of the threads Bruce cited.  My throat halyards are both 1:1, i.e. no mechanical advantage and all blocks and lines are original.

For both boats I usually hoist the sails as follows:

Release downhaul and raise boom gooseneck above long pin, then insert pin to support boom prior to departure.

Hoist sail with gaff reasonably horizontal until luff is just snug with maybe slight scalloping.  At this point the gooseneck is still resting lightly on the pin or just above.This is pretty easy on PC, tougher on the HC which is why I have the boom supported by the long pin.  I found that the friction in the throat halyard combined with weight of the boom made it quite difficult.  I don't like using a winch because I'm concerned that I might break something.

I then yank the long pin, and the gooseneck usually settles down close to the level of the mast hinge.  I then tweak the halyards and downhaul so the gooseneck is just BELOW the hinge or overlapping it and the luff has proper tension.  I know this is different than most, but I think the lower mast stub is stronger than the upper portion of the mast supported by the hinge.

I have no problem with boom clearance although I've seldom used the HC's bimini so not sure about that.  Maybe there are some variations in the cut of the sails.


Andre

[Zephyros]

I will be experimenting with an alternate uphaul turning block, other than the factory cheek block.
When next at the boat, I will check relative roughness on two sides of the sail track.

Hi Roland,

Any update on your "alternate uphaul turning block" ?

[Roland of Macatawa]

Hi Zephyros,

I don't yet have a solution for the throat halyard with which I am fully pleased. Have run into the Laws of Unintended Consequences.
(Also known as the Law of Conservation of Problems. according to my old Engineering Professor / Mentor.)

Have constrained myself to bolt-on trials, in order to be reversible.
Have been bolting-on at the capscrew pin of the lower peak halyard bail near the top of the mast.

The 2:1 trial works nicely, raises without binding up as it did before, but my trial mount interferes with the peak halyard line returning down to the deck.

Am designing a bolt-on bracket that hopefully I can get made by colleagues at the company from which I retired.
They do a lot of stainless steel fabrication (laser cutting, bending, welding) and their scrap would be suitable for me.
I think a suitable custom bracket mount might well solve my interference problem.

My trials have not been inexpensive. I have purchased blocks, mounting tangs, longer line, and miscellaneous stainless steel hardware.
But now, seeing how nicely it could potentially work, the remaining problem has become a challenge to overcome rather than to return to how it was.

My other off-season projects were more successful:
I've added a Tiller Clutch
I've made a new motor mount plate whose height better fits the range of adjustment of my parallelogram linkage motor mount and the outboard which I have.
I've added a halyard to adjust position and tension in my lazy-jack system. It works as intended, but still needs a little tweaking of the length of some lines.

Regards, Roland

[Zephyros]

Hi Roland,

Thanks for the update and insight, great to hear your making progress. I'd be very interested to see a drawing of your "bolt-on bracket", if you have one you don't mind sharing, and of course photos when it is completed. I'm also a retired engineer so I tinker, design and fab as needed, my winter to do list has dragged out and I'm hoping to relaunch this month.

Please tell us more about your "parallelogram linkage motor mount", an aptly named device. I assume this is an interlink between the rudder and outboard, do you have any photos?

[bruce]

Roland,

That twist in my throat halyard got the best of me so, I replaced the swivel block with a fixed block. Got out this morning to test it.

I'm glad to hear that Michigan opened the ramps. It's the same here, the state ramps are great, the municipal ramps, not so much.