Converting toilet from raw to fresh water.

[Reighnman]

Hopefully someone has done this as I'm adding it to my list. The salt water in my back bay is just too full of life and makes the cabin stink as it decomposes. So, the plan is the tie the sink drain hose to the raw water hose heading into the head. I'm thinking it would require two divert valves, one on the drain line and one on the raw water line. In my head, turn valves to run the sink full, flush the head.

Also, it's highway robbery that you must buy a $70 complete repair kit and all you need are $2 worth of seals!

[brackish]

Something about that just doesn't feel right but I don't know what.  Pumping while bypassing the anti siphon loop maybe?

However, all of your post is why I will never have a marine head/holding tank or porta potty with removable tank again.  My Columbia 8.7 had clean salt water for supply and it still smelled all the time and had to be rebuilt often with those expensive kits.  For me it is/will be either Clean Waste toilet with Wag Bags or a Composting toilet on my present or any future boat.  Using the Clean Waste on my 23, a great improvement.  You will need a standard three or five gallon bucket with a Gamma Seal lid for storage of used bags, but no smell.

[Reighnman]

From what I've read online, this isn't bypassing anything, just diverting drain water from sink to toilet instead of overboard. The waste is still pumped through the anti siphon loop to either then tank or overboard.  It seems to be a cheap way to indirectly join the fresh water system to the head without worrying about backflow into the potable water system. That said, I've been known to overlook the obvious.
I'm at my limit for capital improvements to this boat but the next one will likely get a composting head.

[wes]

I've done this upgrade and can attest to the vast improvement in smells. I did a more extensive project though, involving a new electric toilet (Raritan Marine Elegance) that's designed for fresh water and includes a solenoid valve to control the incoming pressure water. I'm very pleased with it.

Besides the smell issue with seawater toilets, I also believe all manual marine toilets are too complex and intimidating for inexperienced guests. I felt the investment in the electric toilet was well worth it in terms of eliminating one barrier to getting my wife to go sailing with me!

Wes

[Reighnman]

Wes, having a functioning head is an Admiral requirement. I'm sure your wife appreciates the ease of push button flush. Did you use Raritan flex hose? Hard prying $10/ft from my cold CHEAP hands but A) I don't want to be redoing this project in 2 years and B) the bends to make the head fit in a 25 could be difficult with the stiff cheap hoses.  Pulling all hoses and the tank on Monday. I might just leave everything out until Defender has it's giant annual sale in March. Have a growing list of stuff already and the boat isn't going anywhere for the next 5 months.

[wes]

I used the Trident Sani-Shield hose which was highly rated by Practical Sailor. The Raritan toilet only requires 1" since the toilet incorporates a macerating pump. #502617 from Defender, $7.99/ft. You don't need much! FYI the Raritan toilet is designed for the hoses (incoming and outgoing) to exit from below. So I had to patch the old hose penetrations through the bulkhead behind the toilet. It was a chance to learn gelcoat patching .

Wes

[Reighnman]

Thanks Wes! I've got a bunch of small batches to gelcoat topside but I keep prostrating it with other jobs. I'm sure yours came out beautiful. This manual head will be my last. Next ship will either be electric or composting. I'm at my limit for none sailing upgrades on this girl. If the checkbook has to come out, it'll be for a new main. I'm also reviewing rope manufactures at the moment. Defender has Marlow brand double braid for a very reasonable price but I can't find many reviews so I might stick with Samson or Cajunropes. We'll see, head first, sheets and halyards later but not before gelcoat! Thanks again. 

[Bob23]

I've toyed with a composting head for my 23...not quite ready to pull the trigger yet.
A new mainsail? Really. At the BBB you're looked pretty good and she sure pointed higher than I thought a 25 would. I'm really impressed with your boat!!

[Reighnman]

Thanks Bob! It does the job for me and then some. Meant more that if I'm going spend major $$ on Freedom, it'll be sail related or a autopilot. She's not my forever boat and when selling her a new main should be more appealing to a buyer then a new head, at least it would to me.

The composting head seems like a winner, and there's plenty of DIY ones on youtube. Could be a fun winter project for you! Ok, back to racking leaves for me!

[Reighnman]

Pulling 17 year old sanitation hoses in 45F weather was one of the worst jobs to date. I ended up hacksawing the line to remove everything. It's so tight in the compartment I'm leaning towards the Raritan Sani-flex lines. Another problem is the holding tank has a pinhole leak! Have an email to CP regarding a new tank but it looks custom for the 25 which they haven't made in years. If they don't have one, I'll attempt a plastic welding kit before taking to a metal fabricator.

[Mas]

Only because the head on the our Pacific Seacraft has a rebuilt marine toilet along with all new sanitation hose and macerator we are not going to convert to composting head any time soon, otherwise we would seriously consider it. Regardless of what the next incarnation for a head looks like, you should plan to keep all seacocks and ability to have a marine head in place as removing all of it may affect resale value for folks who truly wish a proper marine head. Also make sure that no matter whether fresh or salt, you flush with enough water to completely flush everything through your lines and not just out of the bowl, which takes more pumps than imagined. This is where many odors and problems occur. Your holding tank should have zero odor whether fresh or salt flush. It is a sealed system, which also reminds me to suggest a way to seal your sink drain until it is needed if running flush from it, otherwise air will infiltrate the sanitary system and cause odors. Suspect you are already on this point. If never out for more than a day or two, using fresh water to flush is not gunna cause you to run out but if on an extended voyage and away from refilling your water tanks cannot imagine using it for flushing. It is a way to valuable commodity for such. Might wanna consider a way to switch back to raw water flush easily while out.

There are many you-tubes out there on the composting switch. Also be aware that urine is sterile and actually NASA recycles it for use on the ISS. They don't use it for drinking (though if in a desert with no water, your pee could keep you alive) because of psychological reasons it is not used for consumption but is is perfectly safe and tasteless once recycled. (used for cleaning and other uses instead) What this means is that on a composting head where the liquids container needs to be emptied far more often than the solids, you can simply empty it overboard. I don't know about you all but i don't get out of the water to pee if swimming and usually send urine overboard when out. Just saying, it might be more environmentally friendly to dump your pee overboard than into a pump-out station and have it treated with all of the chemicals they use for such and then still have it sent back into the bay. Again, pee only, not the solids. The solids, which depending on use may need emptying every few days or weeks and is odor free, can be used when full to augment soils for flower gardens and such. Prob would not use it on my vegetables! (same reason used by NASA for their urine use!)

[Reighnman]

Thanks Mas! I'm sticking with the same head, and Hutchins still carries the tank so that was a painless choice. I'll install a y valve on the sink drain line and a T on the raw water line so I can use the sink as a fresh water flush. Simple twist the Y and I can use seawater. I'll change the sink line to hose rated for below waterline application as it's currently generic bilge drain hose. If/When I decide to sell, it's an easy switch back to just raw seawater if buyer request it. Knowing the sink volume isn't sufficient to flush the line completely, I'll have a gal jug in the head to assist with more volume as the person flushes with the sink water. This should keep the seals lubricated in the flush chambers and get the "stuff"  out of the line. Not sure of other holding tank set-ups but the discharge hose on the hold tank lays parallel to the bottom of the tank for a couple feet, so it's also partially filled with "stuff". Guessing this hose should be changed more often then the top one connected to the bowl. When I removed everything the bottom hose was completely black on the outside. If/When a new boat comes into the picture, a composting head is on the list. Come on spring!!

[Mas]

Best summary of what we believe as well. Like these guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o-ng0Jc36U&list=PLx_mGFQfb39FRLFgmfdJhD9gAzlim5NPR&index=141

If we all were simply responsible in all aspects of our lives there would be little need for regulations. Blindly following 'orders' is a lower level of morality than doing what is right regardless. It is why the Nuremberg defendants could not simply say they were 'just following orders' as a defense for their actions. Alas, it is not the case by and large. Too often we hide behind our rules.

Sorry....got a little preachy...am over it now!

[Reighnman]

Pootastic!

[Reighnman]

Finally completed this project and for those reading this in the future please do the following. Mark all the hoses while still in place, take several pictures of the setup, keep the old hoses to use as templates and Buy saniflex hose from Raritan, it's a gift from the toilet gods. You'll need a hacksaw and wire snips to clean the wire ends within the hose. After spending a year working on this boat, my biggest envy of the 27 is the room to complete jobs like this one. My knuckles are torn apart. I did make the job more complex by adding another 3 way valve so the toilet can now be fresh or salt water flushed. Here's to a less stinky 2019.