Hull damage from trailer roller/ Ballast Replacement

[H2operator]

Hi Everybody, This is my first post! I searched for posts regarding hull damage due to trailer rollers and didn't come up with anything. I bought a CP 23 on eBay that was donated to a charity. I was a little disappointed to find some damage to the hull where the forward trailer roller supported the boat. The owner "had no idea" how the damage occurred. I'm guessing that there will be a set of bunks in my future to replace the wobbles. The damage deflected the full aft of the bulkhead. Luckily the damage only delaminated and fractured the first layer of glass.
Has anyone experienced this type injury? I'm curious about what to expect when I take pressure off, I doubt that the deflection will rebound but possibly could.
Also has anyone converted a roller support to bunks?
Thanks for any advice, Lance

[Tom L.]

Hi, H2O
It's been my experience tat wobble rollers are sometimes missused. I don't know what your trailer looks like but the boat should be supported from it's keel and the rollers act as stabilizing supports. Bunks do the same thing. Generally the bunks only stabilize the boat but do not carry a lot of the weight. Any trailer for these boats should have either keel rollers or a continuous keel support board/timber that supports most of the boats weight.

The hull may pop out when you take the weight off the roller bank but it may not if the glass is splintered. If it is splintered a more aggressive repair will need to be made, most likely from the inside.

Good Luck

Tom L.

[brackish]

tapered keel rollers under the keel, continuous keel  guides to keep it lined up and continuous bunks to support the upper hull area with good bunk carpet or one of those synthetic slick plates.  Just make sense, eliminate the upper point loads and the propensity to hit a wobble roller wrong if you get out of alignment.

[H2operator]

Thanks for the advice, It looks like I'm going to sell the boat as it's looking like a project that I don't have time for now. Primarily the ballast needs to be replaced as well as the minor fiberglass issues.

[Potcake boy]

H2O
Why do you feel the ballast needs to be replaced?
Thank you

[H2operator]

After sleeping on it I'm planning on replacing the ballast. I inspected the concrete and was able to put my hand into the concrete as if it was sand! It's completely deteriorated.
I'll be looking for advice from people on their experience replacing the ballast. I like the idea of reinforcing the inner keel and placing lead in the bottom and not using concrete.

[Potcake boy]

Well that's not comforting for Com Pac owners. I've never heard of that happening. Any idea of what may have caused the problem? Any sign of long term submersion in water? I've seen more than a few neglected boats left on their trailer unattended. Not having drain plugs, eventually many fill with rain water which creates even more damage.

[deisher6]

Hey H2o:
I know that there are several older blogs on this mostly in C-16's.  Here are a couple:

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=7073.msg51634#msg51634

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=4552.msg32423#msg32423

I searched for C-16 Ballast and C-23 ballast.

Smooth Sailing

regards charlie

[Tom L.]

Regarding ballast. The idea of using lead instead of concrete is probably a good idea. However reinforcing the keel cavity may be required as the concrete most likely does ad some structural integrity. Maybe yes maybe no. Jerry would most likely be open to discussing that with you.

I had a Sun Cat which is my experience with Com Pac.

I now have a Menger Cat 19. I really like cat boats and at the time couldn't find a Horizon to replace my Sun Cat. For your reference the Menger has a mixture of Lead shavings with Concrete as ballast. Some of the concrete was deteriorated but no where near what you described as sand. I dug out the loose concrete separated the lead and added a small amount of new hydraulic concrete mixed in with the lead and spread on top of the old ballast.

That was my fix. Because most of the original ballast was still in place I didn't feel the need to reinforce the keel cavity.

Tom L.

[H2operator]

Well that's not comforting for Com Pac owners. I've never heard of that happening. Any idea of what may have caused the problem? Any sign of long term submersion in water? I've seen more than a few neglected boats left on their trailer unattended. Not having drain plugs, eventually many fill with rain water which creates even more damage.

I'm sure that the boat partially filled with water at some point due to water staining in the storage areas. The boat lived in Michigan so you can imagine that the freeze/thaw effect was pretty severe!   

[H2operator]

So I just received a message back from Gerry at Com Pac, He says that they put 1280 lbs of concrete in the 23 keel with no steel or iron as most people assume!
So the question is, If you replace the ballast with lead at the bottom of the keel trunk and reinforce the trunk hull area, can you get away with less ballast due to the righting moment being relocated? And if so how much? Ive got an old friend with a degree in Yacht Design but he's busy with his business in Tortola at the moment!     

[Tom L.]

H2O, the answer is use and no. If you know someone who has the knowledge and he can obtain the design drawings it is possible to reduce the total weight of the ballast because the lead would be lower in the keel and have a more efficient righting moment. But if you do that the boat will ride higher on her lines and change all those righting calculations again.

I don't know if you have priced lead but it is very expensive including new and used if you can find it. I can guarantee you will never recover that cost in resale value. Additionally I am not sure how much you would actually be able to realize the benefit while sailing the boat.

It's a pricey idea considering the described overall condition of the boat.

If the hull has gone through multiple winter freezing cycles, as described, you may have some major issues you haven't found yet and would need a surveyor with lots of FRP experience to figure all that out.

Tom L.

[H2operator]

H2O, the answer is use and no. If you know someone who has the knowledge and he can obtain the design drawings it is possible to reduce the total weight of the ballast because the lead would be lower in the keel and have a more efficient righting moment. But if you do that the boat will ride higher on her lines and change all those righting calculations again.

I don't know if you have priced lead but it is very expensive including new and used if you can find it. I can guarantee you will never recover that cost in resale value. Additionally I am not sure how much you would actually be able to realize the benefit while sailing the boat.

It's a pricey idea considering the described overall condition of the boat.

If the hull has gone through multiple winter freezing cycles, as described, you may have some major issues you haven't found yet and would need a surveyor with lots of FRP experience to figure all that out.

Tom L.

Tom, I'm coming around to the idea of reusing concrete. I'm pretty confident that the glass is in decent condition from my inspection but will still give a full inspection once the concrete is out. One saving grace is that the boat never saw salt! I'll most likely reinforce the entire inner keel with West System and glass anyway. Luckily I'm pretty experienced in concrete and fiberglass work(a statement most sane people would never make)!

[tmw]

This got me thinking, what if all the concrete was replaced with foam, so the boat was lighter and easier to trailer.  Would make for an interesting set of sailing characteristics.

[H2operator]

The only problem is that the boat would no longer be a sailboat, you need ballast or you would broach.
Even the weight of the rig may make it unstable.