Jib sheet routing and adjustable cleat position questions

[Yamaha33410]

So I have a cp16 mk1, it appears some mods have been done to it, it has a bowstay but the jib is still attached to the chainplate up front for the forestay. It also has, what I can only imagine is a "swiveling bullseye" as compac call it, on an adjustable position bow to stern track.... it appears the older Cp16's had just a cleat on the gunwhale of the cockpit to tie off the jib sheets.

I previously posted some pictures with my jib sheets running inside the standing rigging and was told that was wrong. I have since been sailing with them on the outside but run into snagging problems when trying to tack and the sheet gets stuck in a down position, I could reinvent the wheel on the covers for my turnbuckles but it just seems like the sheet is not in the right route to me to begin with. Im not 100% certain what stay sail I have, I would say its a 110% jib maybe, it is longer then the forestay to mast distance, it is hank on to the forestay, it doesn't appear to be that large to me.

So here is my real issue I could use some input on, what do I do with the sliding positions that secure the jib sheets? Do I run them in the forward most position? Rear? Middle? Do I change what position I have it on depending on what point of sail I'm at? I've tried playing with it and don't notice too much of a difference, so I'm wondering if someone has the proper answer to what position they should be at, if it makes a difference at all...

Thanks

[Mas]

We currently have a Mk2 with the genoa track along the coaming. Had a Mk1 previous to that with the simple cleat you speak of. I am a little unclear as to what you mean when you say the sheets get stuck in a down position? Sheets trim sails, halyards raise and lower them? Did you mean the halyards get stuck in a down position? Maybe someone installed a jib downhaul on the boat as well? (not a bad thing to add!)

Regardless it is truly the proper location for the headsail sheets to be outboard of the shrouds. If you have the adjustable tracks I have, play with bringing them inboard when trying to beat close to wind on light air days. Makes a nice tight slot to help power up the main. Hutchins sells the tracks for the MK2 and above 16's and you don't have one they are a nice feature if you intend to run more than the one headsail, which you are probably correct in it being a 110 since the bulk of them were 110's.

Good luck and what great little boats!

[JBC]

If your jib is 110%, I would say that the blocks for the sheets on the track should be in the forward position. With larger stay sails, the sheets would be led further aft. Ideally, the angle from the sheet block to the headsail should point as much as possible toward a mid-luff position on the sail.

Also unclear about what's hanging up your sheets on tacks, but if they are getting stuck on the shroud plates, perhaps tweaking the covers on those might indeed help.  Agree that sheets should stay on the outside of the shrouds, but your rig is not standard (there were no tracks on original MK 1 boats), so the original angle of the sheets might have changed by adding the tracks, which lowered the blocks from the original position, and that could be some of the issue with hung-up sheets. That is not a problem with the forestay bumped forward on the end of the bowsprit in newer models.

Jett

[Yamaha33410]

no my jib sheets when run outside of the rigging get hung up on the turnbuckles/covers/clips on the bottom of the covers and  7 times out of 10 I have to move up and push them off by hand everytime I tack/jybe for the sheet to run unobstructed to the jib and allow the sail to take the proper shape. Obviously when I first used my boat the first two times and had the sheets inboard of the rigging I did not have this problem. It gets annoying, I think I could remove all my circle locking clips on the turnbuckles and put on smaller ones and maybe have less obstruction or things to snag on... I may just try that tonight while I'm getting the boat prepared for a Sunday sail and see how that works while the mast is down and the boat is on the trailer.

so its not a very clear cut picture of where to put the locking cam cleat as far as what position on the track depending on how you want the sail shaped?.... I've tried experimenting but sadly I don't really know when i've found the proper way as I don't know the difference... that whole lack of experience thing... either way gets me moving, just wonder what the proper setup/position is if there is a standardized way of positioning them...

[Yamaha33410]

ill try to get some pics this weekend of my sheet routing and angles while I'm out

[Duckie]

I'm a little unclear on this, but I have been told that if you move the cleat forward on the track it will pull the leech of the jib tighter so it will close up on the mainsail creating a tighter slot.  If you move the cleat aft, it will tighten up the foot of the sail which will open up the slot to allow more air to slip through the slot.  If you are reaching in higher winds and want to decrease the heeling force, you move the cleat aft.  If you are going to windward you move it forward to tighten up the slot and point higher.  I tried this out and it does work, though it sometimes is hard to see the difference. 

As far as the sheet getting caught on things, I can identify.  When I first got my CP 16, I had the same problem.  Try covering the things that are catching the sheets with some tape to make them lay down better.  That would be the easiest thing to try. 

Al

[Yamaha33410]

Thats a great response, I'll give it a shot, as an easy way to sum it up, move the track towards the direction the wind is coming from..

Thanks guys, sometimes just talking stuff out makes it seem more clear and gives more ideas


Ready for a sail this weekend! Been a couple weeks =) The wind forecast is for 5-10 which isn't too exciting but, they are always wrong anyways I've noticed

[JBC]

Good advice from Al on jib sheet control...better than my own.

Cheers!
Jett

[mattman]

Placement of the headsail fairlead/jib car depends on what type of shape you are putting in the sail. I have spent hours upon hours tweaking sail trim on my 16 comparing compass headings with vmg and gps tracks. My 16 had a relatively flatter cut 110 headsail...the best fairlead placement for my set of sails for 80% of upwind conditions turned out to be one inch inside the cabin edge and about four inches forward from the aft of the cabin. I ran barber haulers to achieve this placement from the standard fairlead cam cleat position on the coaming, and depending on wind speed would slide the barber hauler  in or out, and up or down the jib sheet to really get picky about flat spots in the luff. I also added a purchase to the jib halyard to better adjust luff tension.  I ran the sheets inside the stays. I would recommend that you add three to four tells on the luff of the jib and two on the leach. This will allow you to adjust halyard tension and sail fairlead placement to maximize shape and flow.  Headstay sag effects sail shape tremendously and halyard adjustments should be occurring as points of sail  and wind conditions change. Basically you want to maximize drive by hitting your desired angle of heel and helm targets. These targets are going to change depending on conditions...that would be another post.  There are no absolutes in hardware placement...just the best setup for your particular set of sails. Best of luck

[kickingbug1]

    when i had my 16, i ran the sheets inboard of the stays. mine had the stock camcleats with no tracks on the cabin top. i tried running them outside the stays and it didnt improve sail shape or performance and did hang up occasionally. i had a stock 110. they also run inside the stays on my catalina 18 with a 100 jib. i used a gps to measure differences in performance at various points of sail.