Rudder Head Holes are Plugged

[Dave-in-RI]

Me again. The "mystery rudder" mystery deepens. The rudder head used to have screw holes for attaching the line guide (arch shape; don't know name) under which the lifting line would be run up the tiller to keep it on top— they've been filled in by prior owner. Thinking this was part of his using the lifting rod, there's also no way to attach the plastic stop to hold the rod's square stopper. Does anyone have a suggestion for clearing out the plugged holes? Or should I just use strong adhesive and replace as needed since it's not a critical component? The prior owner also plugged the line clutch/stopper holes from atop the tiller and relocated it to the underside (no, it's not upside down). See pics: thank you!

[bruce]

I'd assume they are wood or putty. Pick out the center as well as you can, at least until you have a good sense of the center of the hole. If necessary, choose a drill size that stays clear of the threads and drill out the center. The remaining material in the threads will likely have crumbled out to some extent, pick out more as possible. Dental picks from a retired dentist or hobby suppliers can be handy here.

If some remains, clear the threads enough at the top to determine the size and pitch. Try running a tap without drilling out the center to the appropriate tap drill size. Do that last if some still remains, staying in the center as well as possible to preserve the threads.

Heat, locally applied, can help break down the plug.

If you make a mess, you can drill and tap larger threads.

If I abandon holes and don't like the look, I typically like to just screw in extra fasteners that can be easily removed if I change my mind in the future.

Edit: If you don't find tapped threads, indicating that just self-tapping screws were used, then you won't need to be as fussy. Drill out the hole, maybe slightly smaller, and you should be able to use the same size self-tappers as before.

[Dave-in-RI]

Thanks, Bruce. I know you did this sort of thing for a vocation, but I still smiled when you suggested dental picks. I'm more the 'cartoon stick of dynamite' kinda guy (or at least I used to be, I feel compelled to actually make this boat nice). I emailed Matt at Compac (Parts Manager) about the rudder head with the same pictures, plus asked him about the companionway step (covered in varnish and mung, plus some of the treads are loose w/ no screws and the whole thing is missing the riser). I saw the parts list ahead of time, but was hoping he'd suggest something new. This is what he sent (note he says rivets for the eyestrap (I've no experience there), and tapped for lifting rod stopper):

It looks like it was filled with bondo or something that could be drilled out. The holes for the eyestrap that is used with the lanyard are just drilled with a #10 drill bit and the eyestrap is riveted on. the top holes for the lifting arm top pieces are drilled with a #10 bit and tapped with a 1/4-20 tap.


For standard blade, if you need them:

RA00E0050 EYE STAINLESS $6.29 EA.

RA00C0135 CLEAT - TUBULAR JAM $5.83 EA.


For foil blade:

Rudder parts for foil blade - $45.


New rudder head:

RA00C0075 CASTING RUDDER/SUN CAT (drilled & painted) $427.70 – That includes the standard eyestrap, add $45 for the foil rudder parts.


Here is the price for the whole step assembly:

IN00S0145 STEP BOARD AND TRIM KIT - SUN CAT $348.00


Just the front of the step is $50. You will have to trim it to fit, we have to on every boat.

''


Now I'm less sure about how I want to proceed, but am certainly curious about essentially glueing an eyestrap for the lifting line and at least seeing if it holds. Jam cleat I can install no problem. Not sure I want to use the lifting rod or not, but might get that part anyway and consider my options once it's in hand. $430 for a new rudder head, when this one seemingly works fine, isn't a high value proposition. As for the companionway, I'll see if I can get the varnish and crud off, plus attach the loose treads, before proceeding. Paying $50 for a riser I then have to trim to fit doesn't seem worth it, I've got the means to make my own (was hoping for something that just showed up in the mail vs making a template etc). I haven't tried anything at all yet, it might be a very quick job, though I doubt it. Here's some pics of that:

[bruce]

I wouldn't glue the eyestrap. A new rudder head?

Com-Pac use rivets on the PC eyestrap as well, I don't know why. Self-tapping screws (aka sheet metal screws) would be fine, #8 or #10. Drill an appropriate size pilot hole in the plug and see if it holds. (Just to confuse things, there are also self-drilling screws, with actual drilling tips. Can be handy at times, but not here.)

If they're already drilled with a No. 10 bit them you could tap 1/4x20 threads, overkill as fasteners for this application. BTW, the standard tap drill size for 1/4x20 threads is No. 7.

I'll let others comment on the Com-Pac lifting rod. I'm happy with my alternative.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=11630.msg87413#msg87413
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=11263.0

Cleaning the varnish drips should be easier than you think. Melamine is hard and solvent resistant. Don't want to scratch it, but otherwise a good substrate for cleaning. Would take paint after heavy abrasion, but also easily replaced. $50 for the riser? Looks like oak or ash.

[Dave-in-RI]

I feel like I should start paying you for these consultations! You're a treasure, Bruce!

[bruce]

Don't know about that.

These days I wish I had a better handle on sand points and shallow wells. Need is relative of course, but our in-ground irrigation system was in place when we bought '95 and we've been very dependent on the availability of plentiful, cheap water for our landscaping. Maintenance can be a pain, but manageable. I drove a new well in '10, and it's looking like it's time for another. No amount of blasting with water or air, in situ brushing, acid treatment, or resetting of the depth of the point after removal and cleaning has helped.

[Dave-in-RI]

There's an "abandoned well" box in our new-to-us backyard for which I didn't know the history, and this week my next-door neighbor (85) came out to tell me he and the seller's deceased husband tried to put in similar wells over the years, but they'd all dry up after a few weeks or months until they replenished with heavy rains, then would dry up again, so they abandoned the venture. Maybe that's what finally got yours-- more coming out than going in?

I emailed Matt @ Compac to place an order for a whole new companionway step (I took the old one inside to clean tonight-- which without proper solvents didn't go great-- and noticed the wood is funky (appears varnished over mildew and other stains) and needs to be sanded and refinished (see pic); i'd rather just pay the $350 than deal with all that (guy even varnished over all the screws, so I can't take 'em out without chipping that out first), keeping the original ugly one for spare parts). I would've liked to have more time with it to see how I could improve the step for storage vs portapotti (forum shows some neat drawers, boxes, etc.), but I'll settle for "not bad" to start with. These days it's about probabilities rather than possibilities, unfortunately. I'm also having a new eyestrap, jam cleat, and the stopper attachment for the lifting rod also sent, and will see what I come up with for attaching or modifying them (eg, your suggestion in another forum for turning block and camcleat).

[bruce]

No, I have 28 years experience with this system, and know what my neighbors have experienced over that time. We all have wells that reliably produce, exceptions have been equipment related.

I have water at 5' below the surface, even now in approaching-drought conditions, that doesn't change much over the seasons. The issue is layers of clay between water-bearing layers that can be troublesome. It can be hard to diagnose problems 20' down.

Good luck with your project, I'm sure the new step will look great.

[Jim in TC]

Don't know about that.

These days I wish I had a better handle on sand points and shallow wells. Need is relative of course, but our in-ground irrigation system was in place when we bought '95 and we've been very dependent on the availability of plentiful, cheap water for our landscaping. Maintenance can be a pain, but manageable. I drove a new well in '10, and it's looking like it's time for another. No amount of blasting with water or air, in situ brushing, acid treatment, or resetting of the depth of the point after removal and cleaning has helped.

Back at the farm I drove sand points and tended to get 10-12 years out each drive (after some of the maintenance you mention starting around year 6 or 7 as I recall). Maybe there is a limited lifetime to these things...I got so I could drive a 15' well in pretty short order.

[bruce]

Thanks, Jim. I've got a call out to another contractor. Typically they want to do the whole system. The pumps (two 1 HP pumps staged) are new, everything else is fine. I don't need a new system.

We have heavy clay between water-bearing zones, not much sand. The point I put in in '95 with 15' of pipe was a bear, as has been the two times I've driven the point down the same hole with 10' and 12' of pipe (3' point). 18 lbs. post driver, at times 50 whacks for an inch. Course, my whacks aren't as powerful as the use to be.

I also tried setting the point in the water I see at 5'. I could feel what I thought was clay at about 8'. Didn't help, and water down the hole backs up.

My plan today was to drive a new well, I'm thinking the repeated use of the same hole caused the clay to migrate vertically. I've also heard that reusing the same hole can be a problem since the old point attracted silt to the area. Today I was set to drive a new point 5' away, but I got some positive feedback on one of the contractors my pump supply house recommended. Worth a shot. I don't mind driving another 15' well, but I'm losing confidence. The point I drove in '10 produced water without a hitch, until now.

[Jim in TC]

Way heavier clay than we have here along the sandy coast of Lake Michigan! I hit a narrow band of clay on the way down but busted through with a few hits. The first time I drove it with a small sledge hammer, upgraded to a post driver (not sure wt, but I think lighter duty than you describe). I think I was down to about an hour to drive, clear and connect. Is there a possibility of using water down the pipe to soften things up? I have heard of something along those lines but have little recollection of details, or where to research. I variously hooked up 12 volt RV pumps and a new but old fashioned piston pump with a 12 volt motor, a significant upgrade (we were off the grid there, with solar and wind).

[bruce]

The contractor did return my call yesterday, and showed up this morning to scope out the project. Said there was no problem going down the same hole, and said he'd looked at our system in the 90's before we moved in. The plan was to drive 15' of pipe and check the output with a pitcher pump. (Seems pretty old school, portable electric transfer pumps should work as well I think.) He and his helper would be back this PM. And...they were!

They drove the point and the first 10' with a supposedly 100 lbs. driver....off a tugboat(?). Slow but it worked. They attached the next 5' of pipe and got about halfway using an electric jackhammer. That 2 1/2' took about and hour. At this point the pipe is barely moving, and the pipe was so hot they were afraid they would damage the threads. They can get a little water up the pipe, but not much and it's silty.

There is a chance they can drive the pipe to 15' (18' counting the point), but they aren't sure they can. At this point, I'm hearing why it's a bad idea to drive a point down the same hole. Duh! They'll give it one more shot on Sunday, and I'll have them put a new point in if unsuccessful. They felt my intended site for a new well was too close to the old site, at about 4' where it could tie in to the existing plumbing. Of course, they don't like the design of my well because all connections are below grade in a commercial control box, as is the pipe leading to the pumps and distribution equipment in the garage. They are suggesting a spot next the garage, so I think we can agree to a design on grade that doesn't look too lame.

I'm not seeing it consistently stated, but 10-12 years for a point may be spot on. Water is introduced down the pipe as it's driven is to see if there is drainage, it's a two-way street. The well has to take water if it is to give. That water can help soften the ground, but not much as we saw today.

[Jim in TC]

Interesting process! And curious that 4' is "too close" but the same hole is OK (but, as you say, maybe not). Given the equipment and progress, I am impressed that you drove it with a post driver in the first place.

[bruce]

You can also jack and block the trailer up, some on each side alternatively so the trailer doesn't tilt too much, or dig a trench under the rudder if you're on soil.

Yup, there are different types of taps: Tapered, plug, and bottoming. Unless you're working with a very shallow blind hole, i.e. not a through hole, you'd start with the most common, the tapered. The taper makes it easiest to start. Bottoming taps can cut threads to the bottom of a blind hole, what I think you want, but starting would be difficult at best. Start with a tapered tap and once you've got a thread going switch to a bottoming tap. Clear out the hole as you work to keep the debris from building up.

Smaller tap sizes break fairly often. Save the broken tap, grind the tip down, and make a bottoming tap for next time.