I think I have a problem

[davestlouis]

Keep in mind I was given my CP16 so I don't have a huge investment in it yet...but I was looking at the damaged keel, pondering how to attack that, when I noticed that the hull is flattened where it is resting on the bunks...due to its placement on the trailer no weight is on the keel itself.  Is the hull fixable or since it has flexed, it's kaput? 

[davestlouis]

I figured I might as well see the full extent of my issues, so I dug around on the poorly-done repair on the keel and found delaminated fiberglass and what I took to be body filler covering the ballast.  I dug a loose chunk of filler off and found scrap steel and concrete and gravel as ballast.  The steel has a light patina of rust but the ballast is bone dry.  Now what the heck do I do? 

[pelican]

That must be a very early 16.  I have been told that compac used scrape steel mixed with concrete in some of their early boats. The problem is, steel will swell when it rust and crack the concrete and eventely the keel itself.

I live in the area of several boat yards and about 5 min from the Compac shop. We have some creative older sailors in our area that love to mess about boats and they do some beautiful work. They purchase sunk and storm damaged boats and restore them to new like condition.

I have seen C16 s with the keels cut completely out and replaced with different types of keel designs. I would say that your boat could be repaired, but how much can you do yourself  and is it worth paying someone else to do it if you can't ? I hope you have good luck with it and get her back on the water

Good sailing

[pelican]

That old steel and concrete needs to be dug out of there and replaced with concrete only.

[Gil Weiss]

My 2 cents is that this type of restoration effort becomes a "labor of love" rather than an economical effort to gain a seaworthy boat. You need to consider how much effort and money you are willing to put into a project like this. You also need to consider if you will be OK with the outcome.

No doubt that the poorest condition hulls can be repaired to useable condition by people posessing the knowledge and ability to accomplish the work, but at what cost. Many people on this board have done some amazing work and wound up with great boats. There is, however, a point of diminishing return making some projects not worthwhile. From experience I am not trying to be negative but to be realistic. You need to very realistically consider the effort and money versus the possible outcomes. I have turned down two "free" boats over the years based on my assessment of the possible outcomes.

I once scratch built a sailboat and I have had major involvement in two restorations, all with good results relative to the boat, but not necessarily my wallet or my time management. Today my preference would be to buy a boat in reasonably good shape, bring it up to my standards and go sailing. Good deals are not all that hard to find based on what I read here. . .

Again, my two cents based on many years of sailing experience.

[davestlouis]

I suppose I need to re-form the keel, then dig out the ballast, because if I don't, I won't have any way of reshaping the new keel.  It would appear that mine was built in June of 1975.  

[mgoller]

Gil is right.  You need to make a decision at the "Y" in this road.  Bring the boat to like new condition or cobble together a useable boat.  With what you describe, like new condition is definitely going to be a labor of love and maybe not possible.
Cobbling together a useable boat may not be a bad idea.
The offensive parts are under water and the dents in the hull may turn out to be power tracks or aids in pointing better.  If the hull doesn't leak then you're fine.  Topsides are where you'll live and sail.   
Another way to look at it is you have the chance to individualize the boat warts and all.
I used to restore Triumph sports cars.  The ones at the shows that were perfect weren't driven - they were trailered.  Boring!
I restored mine to like new, there were a few imperfections here or there, but I drove them.  Everything was original, the engines were good, and the interiors were beautiful.  Mechanically they were sound. 
Sounds like your boat could stay in dry dock for a long time to be made right.
Cobbling together means - go at it.  Live with what you have to, fix what you can in short order by being aggressive, and put the love where it will show and shine.  And then sail!
Or, like Gil says, dump it and by one in the condition you wanted in the first place.  Its always cheaper to by one the way you want.
Myself, I enjoy the work and I ignore the money.  I never add up the bill.  Its a hobby. 
Good luck, we'll help all we can.

[pelican]

I suppose I need to re-form the keel, then dig out the ballast, because if I don't, I won't have any way of reshaping the new keel.  It would appear that mine was built in June of 1975.  

As an older gentleman that worked on the first Compac boats told me , The steel needs to be removed from the keel when problems develop.

If the rusted steel is left in the keel after you make repairs, it will continue to rust and swell and the keel will crack or blow out again at a later date.

You are correct, The concrete and steel etc should be completely removed. I have seen a couple of those boats with blown keels. I could put my hands in the hole and pulled gobs of rusted steel with broken concrete out. I would completely agree with the other gentleman on this being a labor of love. These repairs are expensive if performed by a boat yard and may exceed the value of the boat.

There is some labor involved removing and replacing all that material in the keel. And of course , the boat will need other work as well.

As a side note, I was told ,they only used chips of  scrape steel in the early boats.

Best of luck to you

[davestlouis]

The steel looks like the remains of sheet steel after circular plugs were cut out of the sheet.  I have a hole in the port side of the keel where a sloppy previous repair was done that is the size of a saucer.  What kind of success am I going to have getting the ballast out of the hole, vs taking it out from the top?  At this point I have nothing to lose, I may as well attempt the repair, and if it turns to crap, just dispose of the carcass and sell the sails and hardware...if I succeed, I have a usable littel boat.

[davestlouis]

As an aside, I'm talking about light surface rust on the steel, just a patina.  It's not like it is rusting to pieces in there, but some of the concrete is crumbly.  What sort of volume are we talking about here with the ballast, how many bucketfuls are we talking about to get 450 LB's?  How heavy is the ballast vs water, for instance?  I'm just trying to get  feel for what I'm getting into. 

[saillover]

Hey Dave good luck with the repair. Post photos if possible, even if it doesn't go well there is much that we can learn.  I have avoided some major problems on repairs because other people have taken the time to share their experiences both good and bad.

[ilbuildit]

Hi Dave. I wish someone would give me a free Com-pac 16...

   First off, is it possible to post some pictures of the sagging hull and damaged keel?
   
    Second, how is the condition of the rest of the boat. Other then the damage you speak of, is the rest seem to be in sound condition and worth it to repair?
   
   One of the most important things about repairing your keel is do you have the garage/shop space to do it in. Don't let the glass work intimidate you. Epoxy resin (Not polyester resin), glass mat and cloth are not that expensive and if you follow the mixing directions on the resin can and have a space you can keep the temp above 70 degrees you will be fine. Obviously there is some tools that you would need but nothing that is so specialized that costs a fortune. There is a sequence of applying glass mat and cloth to build up the proper thickness to match that of your keel but again this in not hard.

   If you need to make a mold of your keel or a piece of your keel for your repair work there is some easy ways and also not so easy ways around that as well. Biggest part is it is all time consuming but I believe worth the effort.

   To quote Marcus here; "Myself, I enjoy the work and I ignore the money.  I never add up the bill.  Its a hobby". He's absolutely right. You never add up the bill!!! If you do it yourself, you do it to learn, and to say "I DID THIS". The reward is excellent and it makes you that much smarter. You have a very helpful community here with people with a lot of passion about these boats. Everyone learns something from one another even though we all all miles apart here.

   My guess is nobody would leave you hanging if you ran into a snag, myself included. I have 20 years in collision and restoration repairs including Corvette work and fabrication. For me things like what you may attempt are addicting to me. I wish we were closer I would give you a hand, but I can put my experience in online here as many others would as well. Feel free to email me through this site if you have any questions.

   Hope this helps you out.

     Lee...

[pelican]

As an aside, I'm talking about light surface rust on the steel, just a patina.  It's not like it is rusting to pieces in there, but some of the concrete is crumbly.  What sort of volume are we talking about here with the ballast, how many bucketfuls are we talking about to get 450 LB's?  How heavy is the ballast vs water, for instance?  I'm just trying to get  feel for what I'm getting into. 

Five or six 80 pound bags from your home supply store. The old stuff can be removed with a small air hammer. These can be rented from rental stores. Go slow and try not to cut into the glass and do further damage. Make sure the keel is supported when you replace the concrete. As the gentleman said ,Use epoxy with mat for repairs. There are fillers available from Marine stores for below water line repairs. Fill the rough spots with filler and sand smooth.

Take your time and it can look new. Some of the fillers available are close in color to the hull. Epoxy and seal the top of the keel from inside the cabin to keep water from getting into the keel from inside the cabin. Raise sails, add water, and go sailing.

Not to say , this is an easy repair... That depends on you , your skills and perception of the problem. But this is a small boat and consequently a small problem. If the rest of the hull is solid , a guy with average skills, should be able to make repairs for very little money.  Best of luck

[pelican]

Take out from the top. Do your keel repairs and refill from the top. Re- seal the top with epoxy to keep water from entering the keel from the cabin.  (if water gets in)

After you get the material out of the keel, you can make a mold for the epoxy by purchasing any thin plyable material that can be bent to the approximate shape of the keel. This can be bent and placed inside the empty keel to give you a form to lay mat against.  Again , best of luck

[Cricket Crew]

WHOA!!! Look at all the posts since I've been gone over the long 4 day weekend! I'll catch up later, but wanted to let you know of a site I found earlier this year....
The restoration of a Montgomery 23 ~
Sean has done a GREAT job with lots of pics .... Check out the 'bottom/blister/keel' link to see how he cut out the sides of his keel, dug out the nail head metal ballast and replaced it with lead shot ~
http://www.havasumontgomerys.funtigo.com/?cr=1&rfm=y
Also, I've found a post during the summer on another site about gel coat restoration ~ I'll try to find it again and post here also....
Cricket, hull #60 will join the pack as soon as I get a chance to post some pics of her clean-up. It appears she's been in coastal NC
since the early 90's -- before that, who knows....there are faint ghost marks of a SC registration number. It would be interesting to see if yours #54, B.Hart's #63 and mine #60 were all sold to Capt's in the same general area when they were produced!
All for now ~ Later Sailors,
AJ