Hi,
As discussed in another thread, I plan to use my Suncat as a power displacement boat. We have tons of great rivers and creeks to explore and sailing, I have neverr gotten around to seeing them. I would like to.
So I an looking for the smoothest and quietest engine I can find. I have found a previous version Yamaha 6 HP 4 Stroke near me in great condition. It is a way cool motor with the F/N/R shidfter on the tiller....and, being a two cylinder (with thru prop exhaust) it is very smooth ad quiet. Really a nice engine!
However, this beast wieghs in at 87 pounds!
Understadning my desire, to quietly and smoothly power for 20 plus miles in a day, am I nuts to consider hanging that much wieght on the back of my suncat?
Anyone use one of these outboards or the similarly heavy others (Honda comes to mind) on thierr suncat?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and opinions.
Hi Cruz,
You already have my opinion on the Tohatsu 4, 5 or 6 HP from the older thread. (not suitable for you because lack of ability to keep it pointed straight ahead).
However, I also have a Honda 5HP 4 stroke on my Precision 21 which is about a 2000 Lb boat. I like the motor a lot and it's a little quieter than the Tohatsu, easier to pull start, and has a couple of gallon remote tank for good range (no tiny internal tank like my Tohatsu). It seems to vibrate less also. Maybe there's rubber vibration cushions that reduce the vibration to the boat? I remember seeing the motor move more than the mount when I had the cover off one time while running.
The Honda has a better steering friction lock. Although you need a big flat screwdriver to adjust it (hard or impossible to do when standing in the boat), once it's set, it stays put, but when you want to steer with the motor, a good jerk will move it to a different position.
The downside of the Honda may be more a problem with my boat. On the Honda, the shift lever is on the starboard side, where the Tohatsu is on the front where it's easy to get to. On the Precision 21, I have rear catbird seats and rails, and it's hard to get my head under the seats to be able to reach out and shift the Honda into neutral or reverse gear. You may not have a similar problem with the Suncat however. I don't have any experience with the Yamaha or Suzuki small motors. Good luck.
cruz-in,
If you intent is to use it primarily as a motor sailor, then it won't really matter so much about the boat trim especially on sheltered waters. You can shift some of your other gear forward to help compensate. Yes, that motor will be really smooth and quiet as you won't need to operate it much more than about 1/4 throttle. If you decide it is unsatisfactory, you can always resell it as it is a vanishing breed.
"That Yamaha sounds nice, two cylinder will definitely idle smoother than a single cylinder. Is it a long shaft engine?
87 pounds is really heavy though. Are you going to be trailering the boat or does it stay in the water. If you are trailering the boat putting that outboard on and off is going to get old.
I can't imagine that it won't alter the balance and waterline on a Suncat. My Suzuki is about 50% heavier on a boat that weighs about 500% more than a Suncat... and it (along with other changes) altered my waterline.
Shawn
"You already have my opinion on the Tohatsu 4, 5 or 6 HP from the older thread. (not suitable for you because lack of ability to keep it pointed straight ahead)."
It is easy to lock it ahead if desired. Or better yet just get one of the kits that connects the outboard to your rudder so that they both steer together.
Shawn
Quote from: Shawn on July 23, 2016, 10:46:56 PM
"You already have my opinion on the Tohatsu 4, 5 or 6 HP from the older thread. (not suitable for you because lack of ability to keep it pointed straight ahead)."
It is easy to lock it ahead if desired. Or better yet just get one of the kits that connects the outboard to your rudder so that they both steer together.
Shawn
Interesting, a kit that connects outboard to the rudder?
I am considering buying/installing a much more robust motor mount and installing it with a large backing plate inside the transmo to spread the load.
Yeah...weight aside, this is virtually a perfect motor (IMHO of course).
Yamaha reliability
Smooth quiet operation (two cylinder and tru thru the prop exhaust)
Shifter mounted on the tiller.
Moderatly nice looking
Long shaft.
etc....
Powertiller (powertiller.com) makes a kit to connect your motor to the tiller. I had that and their tiller mounted shift/throttle on my Suncat. Worked like a charm. Steering rig could be connected/disconnected in a matter of seconds. Mounted the blocks for steering lines on the gallows and did not have to drill any holes!
Quote from: cruz-in on July 24, 2016, 07:29:31 AM
Interesting, a kit that connects outboard to the rudder?
Yes, search for "trolling motor steering kit" and you will find plenty. Instead of connecting your "trolling" motor to a big outboard you just connect it to your rudder. Attwood, Panther, Marinetech and others make them.
Shawn
Actually, as I recall it was this exact motor I used on my 19' (not the 8 hp). I purchased a thrust prop and rectifier kit which solved the obvious problems. Another thing to consider is a simple system I used on the 19' and my SunCat. I used a 4 part system like a boom vang for lifting the motor. I attached it to the boom gallows with a flange thru bolted and then the lower end onto the motor bracket lock handle. I removed half of the counterweight springs and the pin that the locking handle engages to lock the motor mount in position. The motor weight holds the motor down and it is easy to raise from the cockpit with the 4 part system. The cam cleat is at the upper end of the system so it is easy to reach. Never had a problem with that system and it made raising and lowering the motor a whole lot easier.
Hi Team,
Yeah, I have kinda "fallen in love" with the 2 Cylinder 6 HP Yamaha. The tiller mounted shifter is just too cool.
In 35 years of small boat sailing, I never thought of hooking the motor and tiller together. That sure would make things great for slow speed docking. That and the tiler mounted shifter, should make me look like an ole salt when docking. :)
Potcake Boy,
That is a great idea for handing the increased weight of raising this motor. I too think I will get the thrust ( lower pitch) prop.
Having had the same motor (Yamaha 2 Cyl 6 HP), how did you like it? Did you find it smooth and quiet?
Thanks All
I'm curious, is this transition permanent. Do you plan to remove your mast and rigging, gallows? That of course will further shift weight, removing a lot forward. I agree that you should shift or add weight forward and give it a try. Who knows you may like it so much you will end up adding a pilot house or a custom canvas equivalent of same. Certainly much less bucks to try the concept than a Ranger Tug (which I kinda drool over myself).
I am taking this in stages.
goal is to get a quiet smooth power source that I could do more power cruising with. Maybe add a dodger to the existing Bimini, leaving all sailing abilities intact.....we will see where it goes from there.
The one big concern I have with the Ranger Tugs is how loud the Diesel is.Especially the R21 with the Diesel square in the middle of the cockpit. While cruising, conversation in the cockpit is challenging. I am concerned this would get very bothersome to me and my wife.
Now the new R23 is a different story. It can be equipped with a modern quiet outboard. Folks say, at displacement speeds, you can barely hear the engine. One person said they had to look at the tack to make sure it was still running. Of course if is north of $100K!
You have a two stroke now, correct? Pretty much any four stroke is going to be quieter than that. My 23 had an 8hp Johnson 2 cylinder 2 stroke when I bought it. First season I replaced it with the Sailpro that was dramatically quieter and had much better fuel economy.
"One person said they had to look at the tack to make sure it was still running."
Not surprised. My Suzuki is that way at idle. I forgot to take a video of yesterday but will try again today.
If you haven't seen them this is the Suzuki's first start. https://flic.kr/p/JDCQSL (https://flic.kr/p/JDCQSL) That is of course out of the water and against a brick wall, it sounds louder in the video than it did there. We were very surprised how quiet it was.
At low RPM. https://flic.kr/p/JxErxN (https://flic.kr/p/JxErxN)
At about half throttle. https://flic.kr/p/JFca8H (https://flic.kr/p/JFca8H) Notice how quiet it is when the camera isn't right at the engine. My kids *love* how much quieter the engine is compared to the old diesel, esp. down below.
One thing you may need to do after you swap engines is track down vibrations in the boat. Depending upon where you are you may find those louder than the engine. I have a number of different rattles I am tracking down. For example the car on the mast track (whisker pole) rattles louder than what the engine sounds like up there.
Shawn
wow....your engine is quiet.
it is not just the sound level, it is the "type" or frequency of the sound that is not near as bothersome (at least to me) as the sound of a 2 stroke.
cruz-in,
Yes, I really liked that motor and would almost buy a boat because it could use one of the twin cylinder Yamahas.
However, in saying that I must disclose that I currently own a 23 PH with a Yanmar diesel. I'm confident of getting a lot of scolding over this, but I would not have purchased this boat if it had the single cylinder. The two cylinder diesel has a few rpm ranges that it is noisier and vibrates a bit, but it is pretty nice at cruising speeds of 2200 to 2400 rpm. That gets you around 5 knts in flat water.
My pilot house is for sale and gives you both a motor cruiser and sailboat. It's not really a motor sailor as it doesn't require the engine to reach cruising speed. Aside from the obvious benefits of the diesel I have found that it adds greatly to the stability of the boat and the trim, because of it's location in the bilge as opposed to hanging on the transom. When I purchased this boat I needed something adequate for cruising and had to be less than 26' in length and shallow draft. Nothing else on the market compared. It served it's purpose well. My wife and I sailed her to St.Pete for the Blues Fest and lived aboard for nine days. There have been some trips of four to five days that have been successful as well. We now have bigger aspirations for cruising which will require a larger vessel/home so the pilot house will become a fond memory.
The real secret to cruising is to enjoy the time spent on the water, and if you have a bad behaviour outboard it can be pretty distracting. I always enjoyed cruising at less than top speed as the motor was quieter, and smoother and the boat behaved nicer. If you've got to be in a hurry to get somewhere you will miss a large part of the cruise. Don't focus on the destination, but rather on your present surroundings.
Here is the engine running at the dock and then throttled back to idle. Again it sounds louder in the video than in real life. Esp. As the boat was not moving so no wind noise. When i pan the camera forward you can hear my Dometic refrigerator's fan running in the cabin. That is very quiet. The initial throttle would have been around 3.5 or 4 knots on the boat.
https://flic.kr/p/KikNE1 (https://flic.kr/p/KikNE1)
Shawn
Hey Shawn,
Is that a rig to raise the motor that I see? There is also some interesting stuff on your motor mount, would you care to share?
Thanks
Quote from: Potcake boy on July 24, 2016, 02:39:44 PM
The real secret to cruising is to enjoy the time spent on the water, and if you have a bad behaviour outboard it can be pretty distracting. I always enjoyed cruising at less than top speed as the motor was quieter, and smoother and the boat behaved nicer. If you've got to be in a hurry to get somewhere you will miss a large part of the cruise. Don't focus on the destination, but rather on your present surroundings.
Well said. I would also just ad that a bad behaving inboard is the same way. I'm thrilled I moved from inboard to outboard on my Sabre. Much less maintenance, drives the boat better, quieter, way more storage and the boat sails better too.
Shawn
Quote from: Potcake boy on July 24, 2016, 07:56:16 PM
Hey Shawn,
Is that a rig to raise the motor that I see? There is also some interesting stuff on your motor mount, would you care to share?
Thanks
Yes, a 4:1 setup. I rigged that up on land before launching the boat. The Garlick mount I have is the two spring model (71094) and for the weight of the Suzuki the 4 spring version (71091) would have been better balanced. As it is I don't raise or lower the motor. I leave it one step up from all the way down and just use this instead https://flic.kr/p/JsG23b (https://flic.kr/p/JsG23b)
The other things you are seeing is the two cables for the remote control along with the electrical connections and fuel line along with the power cable from my 100w solar panel.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7299/27357649784_26624a0d65.jpg)
On the engine itself you might be seeing the steering lock. It is a factory remote setup so it has a tilt tube for remote steering. I set it up locked straight ahead. Factory setup:
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7336/27356889413_f337f75c3a.jpg)
I used a HDPE plate screwed to where the tiller would have been and flipped over the factory remote steering bar and locked it in place to the HDPE plate.
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7361/27970484235_158b6fc117.jpg)
I may change it around to remote steering or tie it into the pedestal steering.
Shawn
Oh yeah, you remind me of the first guy in the neighborhood that got power windows. LOL
Nice work, was it originally an inboard?
Yes, a Volvo MD7A. After fighting with it for 3 years I pulled it this season after it acted up when bringing it out of winter hibernation. The high pressure fuel pump died again, it did that the first time I brought the boat home 3 years ago about a 1/2 mile from my dock. I reinforced the transom with (2) 1'x2'x1" fiberglass plates and mounted the outboard and had the Volvo pulled out.
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7114/27356876413_494d240d73.jpg)
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7615/27936108146_9f9dbcb95b.jpg)
I removed the prop+shaft and strut and glassed over that to reduce drag while sailing.
Still pulling supporting hardware out of the boat and then will clean up that whole area for loads more storage. I also have a large area under the cockpit that the fuel tank was in. The Volvo was about 400 pounds and I've pulled another 100 or 200 pounds of other hardware out. Outboard, mount and reinforcements were about 200 pounds so I'm about 300-400 pounds lighter and have less drag along with a much simpler system that is easier to maintain.
Shawn
Well, if all goes well, I will be picking up the Yamaha 6 HP, 4 Stroke, 2 Cy, long shaft tomorrow. It seems in great shape. Looks new. Single owner. Says less than 10 hours on it. Serviced by Yamaha dealer 12 months ago. Has not been used since. Carb wass also cleaned and water pump impeller replaced during that servicing.
I figure at $700, if it does not work out and is too heavy, it is pretty easy to sell for close to what I paid. So not risking tooo much.
I willl keep you all posted on how this goes.
Picked up the new Yamaha 6 HP, 2 cyl, 4 Stroke. It is a 2006 and I found it on Criagslist for $750. It is in near perfect shape and was sparingly used in freshwater only.
It is really nice and crazy quiet/smooth. At idle, stand 5 or 10 feet away and you do not even notice it running.
But (and it is a big "but"), it is heavy. Easy to see where the weight comes from: Just great built quality, extra long tiller, FNR comtrols on the tiller, 2 cylinders, onboard hose fitting for flushing out, steering tightener up front on cowling, etc. Yamaha seems to have put everything they could thing of on it, hence it's 87 pound weight.