Hi Team,
Well my Suncat did not sell for the low (IMHO crazy low) price of $7500. I was selling because of an interest in a small displacement cruising boat. Something like a ranger R21EC. You can see one at:
www.rangertugs.com
so I have got to thinking about using my suncat as a sorta power displacement cruiser. Albeit one that can also sail. I now have a 4HP 2 Stroke Merc. A really great, very light weight engine. The merc works great for getting from dock to sailing grounds and back. Howevver, does not suit itself well to longterm use as a power source for power cruising.
So I have been looking at replacing it with a Tohatsu Sail Pro 6 HP. This outboard comes with either a 20 or 25 inch shaft, prop better suited to pushing a displacement hull, exernal tank, and alternator for charging. Weighs in at about 60 pounds. Only drawback seems to be it is a single cylinder. I have read reviews on the single cylinder 4 strokes and one complaint is vibration of the single cylinder. This concerns me as I wold run it for hours at a time. Looking for as smooth and quiet displacement speed power I can get.
I would go to a 2 cylinder 8 hp, however at 85 pounds, that seems like way too much to hang off the back of a suncat.
I would love to hear your comments, inputs and thoughts.
Thanks
Dan
I used the 6hp motor you referred to on a different boat, and yes it was noisy and vibrated a lot, although performance was satisfactory. Tohatsu builds the small outboards for most outboard motor companies so if you buy a Mercury or Nissan you are probably getting the same thing. It's easy enough to identify them as they have the same appearance except the name badge, and some a a different color to correspond with the trade mark of the company. I use a 4hp Yamaha on my Suncat, and the difference is remarkable. the Yamaha is quiet and smooth compared to the Tohatsu, and has an external tank as well as internal. It starts easily and runs consistently. I don't have personal experience with them, but from what I've seen Suzuki also make a very nice outboard. If you plan to do cruising (that is making trips with a specific destination) you will be doing a lot of motoring, unless you are a member of the Joshua Slocum society, which would solve the outboard issue all together.
If you still wish to sell your Suncat, be patient there is a pretty steady demand for these unique boats. Putting a new motor on her certainly won't hurt your resale. I am not familiar with your situation, but if you don't have a trailer that would be a deterrent to a potential buyer.
I had the Sailpro 6 on my Suncat and didn't think it vibrated that much and was reasonably quiet. Finding the vibration nodes rpm and adjusting rpm to for the least vibration helps. I do that with the diesel on Kailani if motoring any distance.
Interesting, I wonder if there is a model year difference on the SailPro 6s. Seems from reading reviews the newer ones (last 2 or 3 years) do not have the same vibration concerns the older ones do.
Possible there was a redesign in the last few years?
On Gatito (a Sun Cat) we have a 5hp Nissan 4 stroke. It will move the boat at hull speed at about half throttle. 4 stroke engines seem to have a lot more low end power. JMO. I think you would be wasting your money to add a 6 HP motor. It is a good choice if you didn't already have a good motor, the motor you have should be good enough. Our Sun Cats will never be the equivelant of a Ranger Tug, not even close no mater what engine you install. The four should move your boat to hull speed. The only advantage of a larger motor would be in really nasty wind and wave conditions. The sailpro would give you enough residual power to drive through those conditions. But I am sure it would be very wet and uncomfortable. Better to watch the weather and hole up on a day that is marginal for the Sun Cat.
Be sure and list your boat on other sites. This site really has limited exposure. forsalebyowner.com and the Texas site would be good additions.
Good luck selling your boat it will sell.
Tom L.
You didn't list your contact info in the ad here on the forum. That means only forum members will be able to contact you about the classified ad.
Thanks all. probably should not have mentioned the sale of the boat and Ranger Tug in this thread. Maybe a better way to sate my question is:
Background: Own a ComPac Suncat with 4 Hp 2 Stroke Merc. w/No external tank connection.
Desire: I would liike to equip our suncat for, in addition to sailing, being used to motor more than just out to raise sails and back.Range of up to 20 miles is desired. I would ike to do this with as little noise and vibration as reasonable.
Current situation: It appears that 2 Stroke outbaards, in good condition, are in demand. I have the opportunity to sell our current outbards for a very good price.
Question: So if I were to sell the current outboard, given our desire to motor for longer periods (like 15 to 20 miles), I would be interested in folks input on the applicability of the Tohotsu 6 HP SailPro. Please note the Tohotsu 6 sailpro wieghs the same as the Tohotsu/Nissan/Merc 5 HP.
Sorry for the poorly written original post. Hopefully this makes more sense now.
Thanks
Dan
I agree the 6 HP may be a little overkill. By the way, Tohatsu's really haven't been redesigned in the last 4 years or so. Also, the Tohatsu 4,5 and 6 HP 4 strokes are all exactly the same except for carburetor size. You can buy carb kits to get more HP.
I have a 2013 Tohatsu 4hp, and yes it vibrates some, maybe a little more than my Honda 5 HP (nice motor by the way)
One BIG thing you may want to consider is that the Tohatsu's (and Nissans, Mercurys) do NOT have an adequate steering lock. If you try to lock it in the straight ahead position to motor and steer with the rudder, it moves off center after a minute or two. More tightness in the screw can bust it and doesn't help anyway. . This is a common problem many people have. Annoying for getting to/from the dock, but maybe a deal breaker for your extended motoring needs.
i have to say that my merc 4 stroke 4 hp runs ok so far. it was on the boat when i bought it. four strokes have a large number of moving parts. far more than any two stroke. so they vibrate more. at least the single cylinder ones like mine. and yes, they have the poorest engineered steering lock in history. i would be embarrassed if i would have designed this thing. if i had my drothers i would get rid of the 4 stoke merc and find a good 2 stoke. on my fishing boat i has a 40 hp 2 cyl 2 stoke. it was an 87 model and was used a lot (heck of a lot) with very little attention. it was smooth and extremely reliable. shame you cant buy a new two stroke anymore. thanks government
Dan, I run a 4 hp 4 cyl Yamaha ob (48 lbs) on my cp-16. It will run the boat at hull speed at about 1/4 throttle. It does vibrate a little but not a problem, has F/N/R gears and internal and external tanks.
Now the newer 4 hp Yamahas have the same block as the 6 hp and weight in at 60 lbs. Maybe as others have said stay with 4 - 5 hp and check the weight specs.
I too like to run my boat as a power cruiser because I have some good boating waters nearby consisting of rivers and the Erie Canal. Have you thought of using a Bimini / Dodger, hardtop/
Pilot house mod to the boat when motoring in bad weather like the Ranger might have ?
Mike
"Range of up to 20 miles is desired. I would ike to do this with as little noise and vibration as reasonable. "
20 miles would be easy with a Sailpro and the 3 gallon tank. At full throttle I think it is rated to burn 1/2 gallon an hour. On my old 23 I think I burned about 1/4 of a gallon an hour at cruising RPM which was good for about 4 knots. In theory I could go about 48 miles on a tank, I never tested that but I typically only used less than one tank a season.
On a Suzuki 9.9B I motored for about 2.5 hours (about 12 miles) and used a little over a gallon and that was pushing a 8000 pound boat.
"Please note the Tohotsu 6 sailpro wieghs the same as the Tohotsu/Nissan/Merc 5 HP. "
They are all the same basic engine. I would recommend going with the 6hp Sailpro version though as it will come with the proper high thrust prop and charging system standard. That would be extra on the 4 or 5HP versions and I don't know if you can get the 25" shaft on the 4/5hp models. Having the extra reach (even if you normally don't use it) could be handy in bad waves to keep the prop in the water. People with 28 and 30' boats use the Sailpro as an auxiliary so the Suncat would be easy for it.
As others mention the Tohatsu does not have a steering lock, just a steering tension setting that Tohatsu explicitly says will not lock the steering. You would need some way of locking the steering ahead for long distance cruising with it.
Shawn
Quote from: mikew on July 21, 2016, 04:44:31 PM
Dan, I run a 4 hp 4 cyl Yamaha ob (48 lbs) on my cp-16. It will run the boat at hull speed at about 1/4 throttle. It does vibrate a little but not a problem, has F/N/R gears and internal and external tanks.
Now the newer 4 hp Yamahas have the same block as the 6 hp and weight in at 60 lbs. Maybe as others have said stay with 4 - 5 hp and check the weight specs.
I too like to run my boat as a power cruiser because I have some good boating waters nearby consisting of rivers and the Erie Canal. Have you thought of using a Bimini / Dodger, hardtop/
Pilot house mod to the boat when motoring in bad weather like the Ranger might have ?
Mike
I had one of those 4 HP 4 Stroke Yamahas on an ole peep hen I used to own. Hands down the nicest motor I have had the pleasure of using.
I have also given thought to a dodger/bimini setup. Had one on our previous boat (a peep hen) and really enjoyed it.
Please seel the link I posted on the 5 hp outboard comparison.....they liked the Yamaha best followed by the Suzuki over the honda, tohatsu, and LEHR.
The outboard test is interesting as far as fuel capacity and weight and such but I wouldn't put a whole lot into more than that. On another boat the speed/acceleration results could be different. Those engines have a variety of different props on them (for example the Honda's is 7.5x7.5 while Suzuki is 7.5x6.5) so acceleration/speed will be based around which prop is best suited to the boat they tested it on. This would also impact the noise/vibration/harshness impressions of the engines as there was no RPMs recorded during the test. With those differences in props one engine might be not be able to get to its peak RPM (and therefor not make full power) while another can due to differences in prop pitch. That will change the SPL of the engine as well as the harshness impressions of the engine. An engine that can't get to full RPM is essentially lugging and will feel/sound different from another getting to peak RPM.
You can see this in action by looking at a number of different forums threads about the Tohatsu 6hp engine on displacement hulls. Those without the Saildrive prop are very unimpressed with the 6hp as it is 'geared' wrong for the boat. Engine can't get to peak power and is struggling to push the boat. With the prop Sailpro high thrust prop that engine does much better on a displacement hull.
Added: Found one huge thread that gets into this some...
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/outboard/36963-nissan-tohatsu-6h-4-stroke.html
(http://www.sailnet.com/forums/outboard/36963-nissan-tohatsu-6h-4-stroke.html)
Shawn
Dan, you had a Peep Hen???? Any photos???
Bob23- the thread thief!
I concur about over generalizing the results of the article. I look at it as: If one had a very similar boat to the test boat, the out of the bbox engines would perform as described.
The refinement criteria ia the one I am interested in. Here is the way they define it:
Refinement
We measured each engine's noise output at idle, 3 knots and flat out but also assessed them subjectively according to how smooth they sounded and felt, especially when revved hard.
In chosing my "displacement cruiser" outboard, understanding the test was on a different boat, I would lean toward the ones that got the highest score here. The Suzuki and the Yamaha.
I'm not real sure what your trying to do. Here is a web sight where they are putting pilot houses on small sailboats and they look good to my eye. The sight is www.sailboatrichlands.com and look under current projects. This would be a lot of work but the end results looks great. Hope this gives you some ideas for what you are looking for, good luck.
ROGER
Can't believe you could sell your Sun Cat at that price.
As far as the refinement impressions the idle one make sense and maybe at 3 knots. But flat out the wrong prop will change the subjective and objective impressions of the engine. An engine that is lugging WOT with the wrong prop is going to sound and feel different than the same engine with a proper prop. I couldn't find the Yamaha's props pitch but the Suzuki is pitched lower than the Honda. It will have an easier time getting to full RPM. If the Honda is failing to get to full RPM it will be harsher feeling (lugging) and possibly louder compared to the Suzuki and that is the impressions in the test. A change in prop pitch for the Honda may change that. That is why it would have been great if they had recorded RPM to show how that differed between the engines at WOT and maybe to compare noise/harshness at the same RPM. That thread I linked to has examples of this with the Tohatsu 6hp and different props.
Having said all that that I own two Suzuki outboards (2.5 and 9.9B) and am impressed with how quiet they are. My 9.9B shocks me every time I throttle back to idle, I think it stalls it is so quiet. I'll make a video of that next time I am on my boat. They are different engines than the 4/6hp Suzuki though.
For displacement cruiser noise is certainly something to consider. Availability of a high thrust prop would be worth thinking about, shaft length, ability to charge batteries from it and ease of access to the controls on the engine would be useful too. I had the original version of the Sailpro and can speak from experience that shifter location makes a big difference... esp. when docking. It was difficult getting through the rear pulpit to reach to side mounted shifter. When docking I didn't use the shifter as I didn't want to stop watching my progress for the amount of time it took for me to climb backwards to get into reverse. Once I had shifted into neutral for my final turn I was just working with inertia and a spring line to get the boat in place. The later models with the shifter up front would have been much easier to use and remote controls would have been simpler yet again.
Shawn
I'm very happy with the Yamaha 4hp 4stroke on my Sun Cat. Plenty of range with the 3 gallon external tank and there's room for a 6 gallon if you prefer. The Yamaha 4 has vibration and noise at 5.3 knots hull speed, but is well behaved at 4.7 knots. Between 1/4 and 1/3 on the throttle.
Quote from: Bob23 on July 22, 2016, 04:40:26 AM
Dan, you had a Peep Hen???? Any photos???
Bob23- the thread thief!
[/quote
Oh She was a beauty. PM me your email and I will email a pdf slideshow of pictures.
I traded her for the Suncat
Thanks everyone for taking the time to contribute. I am learning lots.
Let see if I can do a reasonable job of describing how I am thinking about doing the Bimini Dodger:
1) The Binimi would be two parts. The forward part would cover the forward 1/4 to 1/3 of the cockcit. The aft cover the rest of the cockpit. They could be set up independently or together. Both Binimis would be free standing. You could use one without the other.
2) The dodger would attach to the forward bimini and the deck behind the hatch. Allowing access to the cabin while on.
I had a similar setup built for my Peep Hen and it worked very well.
More thoughts on the engine:
1) The Suzuki tested in the article was the old version of the DF5. Suzuki has just intoiduced a completely new version of the DF4/5/6 series. All three are basically the same motor, just different carbs.
2) The new DF6A ia by a long shot the lightest 4 stroke of its size. Wieghing in at less than 52 pounds.
3) So far I have not found anyone who has a review that addresses the noise and vibration of the new DF4/5/6A. Although Suzuki, in its product literature, talks about improvements in quietness. So I assume it is quieter than the old DF4/5/6.
5)
"1) The Suzuki tested in the article was the old version of the DF5. Suzuki has just intoiduced a completely new version of the DF4/5/6 series. All three are basically the same motor, just different carbs. "
One really interesting thing about those engines is that they have an actual oil filter on them. Most of the 8/9.9 hp two cylinders (besides Suzuki) don't even have that. Too bad they didn't put the all in one tiller/controls of the 9.9A onto that series of engines.
Shawn
I understand that for many of the engines the 4, 5, and 6 HP are basically the same. Given this, why would one not chose the 6 HP verrsion and push the suncat at near hull speed with a lower throttle setting and (potentially) less noise and vibration?
"I understand that for many of the engines the 4, 5, and 6 HP are basically the same. Given this, why would one not chose the 6 HP verrsion and push the suncat at near hull speed with a lower throttle setting and (potentially) less noise and vibration?"
Given the same prop all the engines would likely push the boat the same speed at the same RPM. The main (perhaps only) difference between those engines is the carb. The smaller carbs limit the total airflow of the engine which restricts top end breathing. You can see that in the max RPM differences of the engines. Below maybe 3000-3500RPM or so the torque curves of all the versions are likely very similar due to them all being the same displacement and the airflow needs of the engine being lower. Above that point the smaller carbs will restrict airflow more and more which reduces torque (and therefor HP) and ultimate RPM. Peak power on the 4hp is 4500, 5hp is 5000 and 6hp is 5250.
I would get the 6hp and have the reserve power available (at higher RPM). That is assuming the engine has the proper prop to be able to reach peak RPM. If it can't the 6hp engine may really only producing 4hp at a lower RPM. HP = (torque x RPM) / 5252
Shawn
Thanks Shawn, Great explanation.
I have learned so much from folks on this thread.
Thanks to all for taking the time to respond. I am always amazed at the willingness of folks on the internet to help out like minded folks.
The new Suzuki 6HP and the Yamaha are the two front runners. Both cost about the same (just shy of $1500).
"The new Suzuki 6HP and the Yamaha are the two front runners. Both cost about the same (just shy of $1500)."
Both would probably do well for you. They both offer charging as an option too.
Looks like Suzuki's USA site doesn't even have the info on the DF6A, it is still the old DF6 info. DF6A brochure here...
http://www.norboat.no/file/cd71121cd0cd21a184f00a2c6155642e/DF6A_4A_4sider/ (http://www.norboat.no/file/cd71121cd0cd21a184f00a2c6155642e/DF6A_4A_4sider/)
On thing I notice in that is that the DF6A has a different prop than the 4/5hp models. It is a 1/2" more pitch on it at 7" instead of 6.5" pitch. They also have a 6" pitch prop which is probably better suited to a displacement hull. I haven't found what prop is on the Yamaha.
Yamaha looks like it has a nicer control layout as I think the shifter is on the handle itself. Both have more flexible storage positions. Suzuki is about 8 pounds lighter for the 20" shaft.
Shawn
Loooking at the Suzuki DF4/5/6A Brochure, page two, there is a noise versus RPM curve showing the DF4/5/6A is slightly quieter than the old DF4/5/6. There is a band in the mid-range of RPM that shows a reasonable improvement over the DF6. I like this because this band is where I will be operating most.
The referenced article on the 5 HP test said the Suzuki and Yamaha were both the same noise level in the mid rpm range. As that test was with the old DF6, by deducttion at mid range of RPM:
F5 Noise = DF5 Noise DF5 Noise>DF5A hence one can conclude F5 Noise >DF5A Noise at mid RPM range.
Non - Algerbraic way of saying: If F5 and DF5 are about equal.,,,and DF5A is quiieter than DF5...then it follows DF5A is quieter in the mid rpm range than the F5
I posted a few pics of a dodger-bimini set up here (scroll down)
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=9054.0
Dodger stays up (center section rolls up for air flow when needed)
Bimini rolls up small when not needed.
Zips onto didger and has 4 SS clips that quicky attach to SS eyes on the boom gallows
Fast n simple.
Swapped the standard tank on my 4hp 4 stroke yamaha for a 6 gallon.(get one that fits compartment)
Tons of range and never felt underpowered....ever
Power cruising is fine....but the joy of the suncat is the ease of quick stepping the mast for those majic days......or motor sailing at less RPM on lighter wind days.
Fine lil boats!!!
Have fun!!
Thanks Frank,
Was carefuly looking at your picts. Really looks great. I would have to think thru the mainsheet on mine. It has the mainsheet/traveler mounted in the forward part of the cockpit. I really like it there. However, it makes the bimini dodger interface a bit tricky.
Interesting, using one of the tiller to engine connectios, would put the Tohatsu Sail Pro back in contention. Those devices/contraptions seem to overcome the issue with Tohatsu and not being able to lock in position...
If the 6 HP E Stroke 2 Cyl yamaha does not work out, this may be worth considering...
Tohatsu also sells a kit to lock the engine straight ahead. Or a piece of rope will do the same thing.
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C215570%7C1825671%7C2348994&id=2658952
They existing setup can be easily modified to lock straight ahead. On mine I didn't do anything and it stayed straight ahead.
Shawn
I also have a SunCat with a Yamaha 4 HP 4 stroke. Sweetest little engine I think I've ever owned on any boat!
I did 4 days on the St. John's River using the motor exclusively due to bridges and river currents. In the 4 days I covered 80 miles - 40 up river and 40 down river. Running about 1/2 throttle gave me 4.5 or 4.7 mph upstream and 5.8 mph downstream.
I took a full 3 gallon tank and one extra 1 gallon tank. Used about 3 gallons during this trip.
I would like to do all or part of the Erie Canal with my boat, since there are parts where the mast could go up for a sail when desired.
Hope this helps.
Ron
Found the link on how to make the Tohatsu's built in friction adjustment a steering lock.
http://tillerfix.blogspot.com/2014/08/tohatsu-tiller-lock-fix.html (http://tillerfix.blogspot.com/2014/08/tohatsu-tiller-lock-fix.html)
Shawn