For those of you who had a Sun Cat before your Horizon Cat, A question. How much more room is there in the Horizon? Is there comfortable sitting head room. Are the side decks wider and easier to move forward? Just curious as I may be thinking bigger.
I also would want the O.B.version and tiller. The O.B. for ease of Maintenance and the wheel steering seems out of place and awkward. I really need to go check one out in person. New is out of the question for my budget an most newer to. But I need to start looking and saving.
Tom L.
Having had both boats I can give you some input. As for cockpit space the HC is substantially larger with a caveat which speaks to your choice of a tiller vs wheel. The tiller will NOT give you more cockpit space. To the contrary it will have to "sweep" a fair amount of seating in essence reducing usable seating. The HC is my first wheel steered boat in all my years of sailing(more than I want to count!). At first I had a difficult time in adapting(40+ years of muscle memory!). That being said, having adjusted, I really prefer the wheel(actually most of the old original cats had wheels). Yes it does not provide the same feel and response of the tiller. However the increased cockpit space, the ability to leave the helm for brief periods of time, less steering effort when the wind pipes up, easier backing out of the slip, and one less piece of wood to maintain more than compensates! With the big foiled rudder the HC is amazingly responsive and maneuverable and will do a 180 in little over a boat length, again compensating for the tiller steering. As to the side decks, again they are noticeably wider and easier to navigate. One of the first things I noticed about the HC is the ride and "carry". In a chop the HC is far smoother riding than the Suncat. The increased weight makes it easier to tack in light air and chop. I have yet to miss a tack. The increased carry is helpful in docking since I can go to neutral sooner and "coast" into the slip at very low speed. As I mentioned earlier, the wheel makes it easy to back out of the slip. On the Suncat the tiller seemed to have a mind of its own when backing, slamming to one side or the other if not carefully attended(Tricky if you are also trying to steer with the OB). I am 6'2" and there is plenty of seated headroom in the HC and the cabin is very roomy for a 20 footer. The separate head with sink is also nice. We opted for the diesel and really love it. Aside from the fuel economy and electric start, the electrical system(2 batteries and a hefty alternator) makes for somewhat more independence when anchoring out. The downside of most smaller OBs is that they have wimpy alternators for system recharge. On the other hand there is no doubt that it is nice to be able to remove the engine for maintenance. On the plus side of the diesel, no one is going to steal your motor! If you are ever in Punta Gorda feel free to give me a call for a personal tour of Kailani. Hope all this is helpful! Good luck in your quest and let me know if you have any other questions.
The other advantages of an out board as opposed to the diesel is the extra storage space in the cabin as well as reduced weight.
The weight is reduced but the diesel is in effect ballast, low and more amidships so the choice is what it is. The choice is based on a number of personal parameters. There are a lot of good reasons to choose the OB option. In any case the sailing qualities of the HC remain the same!
Graig, thank you ever so much for the input. I think I saw your boat at the marina in Punta Gorda near the Sheraton, right? I was down there that rainy weekend when the WCTSS sailed or tried to sail the upper bay. We were rained out.
I agree with you about the diesel i have had several larger boats with diesels and they are really reliable. The weight in the middle of the boat is most likely better than the O.B. hanging on the transom. But I am concerned about keeping the initial costs down and a plus is much simpler maintenance if things do go wrong. However as a matter of fact on the 4 diesel inboard boats i owned i did all the routine maintenance and never had to bring a mechanic on board and I put a lot of hours on my boats. As for the alternator on O.B., that, I agree is a total waste of time and money. The motor would have to run for hours to do any charging. A solar panel would be my solution.
You are right about the tiller being a cockpit sweep, but it's usually just me and My wife sailing so that is not an issue. All my bigger boats had wheels but you stood behind the wheel not in front. I am sure I could adapt but I really like to steer smaller boats and feel the helm. When I get my Sun Cat Balanced I can steer with my finger tips. I think the cost for a tiller steered boat may be less too.
I saw a Horizon Cat listed in Punta Gorda by a broker. I think it was an "04". Are you familiar with the boat?
Thanks for offering to tour your Horizon. Next time I am down that way I may try to contact you and set up that tour.
Thanks Again
Tom Lincoln
Tom, I am not familiar with the '04 HC but can check around and get some info. It may be with Gulf Island sails/ Punta Gorda Yacht Brokers(where we bought Kailani) which is only a couple of blocks from Laishley. Yes that was my boat you saw. She is barely showing in a couple of pics of the event posted on the WCTSS website. You may have trouble finding a used tiller steered HC as the wheel is standard. As you probably know, Compac will do a special order tiller on a new boat but I am not sure how many are out there. There are two here, one a Horizon Day Cat and a std HC in St Maarten. I agree on the feel of a tiller! Miss it sometimes but the wheel is not bad now that I am used to it ;D Get in touch if you are down this way!
Hi Tom,
I'm the HC mentioned in St.Maarten. I have the tiller version and love it for the feel and the quick response in our gusty conditions.
My version has a slot through the aft coaming for the tiller. Need more room at anchor, just pull a quick pin and the tiller comes out of the rudder stock. I think there is also a version with a v-slot in the aft coaming, on this one the tiller simply hinges upwards to get out of the way.
We also sail two up and we find the boat ideal for us. We have a Tohatsu 6hp extra long shaft which has been great. It's a shame there are no other HC's around here. I'd love to sail a diesel version against an o/b version. It probably wouldn't make much difference in stronger winds, but in a light breeze.... who knows?
I'm trying for the keep it simple approach, so I don't even have a battery in the battery box, so my HC must be pretty light!
Cheers,
Derek
Aldebaran_III,
Don't be in a hurry to give up the simple approach to sailing your HC, without a battery.
Had my Sun Cat for 5 1/2 years and NEVER put a Battery in it! And yet, I cruised comfortably with small battery powered lights for anchoring, navigation lights, reading, general lighting, etc..
I used paper charts, compass, and parallel ruler in lieu of chart plotter, and a lead line in lieu of depth sounder.
Did have a hand-held VHF for communication and emergencies and a small hand-held GPS for speed and electronic compass.
Life aboard was simple, uncomplicated, and exhilarating.
I learned the value of KEEPING IT SIMPLE from experience with complex electromechanical systems on my larger cruising boats, both sail and power, that I took up and down the East Coast and over to the Bahamas for months at a time.
capt_nemo
Derek, from your description it sounds like your Horizon is already wired for 12 volt but you have not installed a battery. My Sun Cat was wired too but I bought it used and the battery was shot and a monster to handle and overkill for the small tasks it had to deal with. So I decided to use a jump starter battery back. Very light and portable. It can easily be taken off the boat and plugged in to recharge. My only reason to have the battery is to operate a sounder. In the skinny water we have in Western Florida it is a great help to sail into areas too shallow but gives me time to tack off and avoid grounding. We mainly have sandy bottoms that don't change abruptly. The other big draw on electric is the anchor light. I have been using a led potable lamp very bright that runs on AA batteries. In addition I use a Garmin 78SC also operating on AA batteries. So far the jump start battery pack has worked very well for the style of pocket cruising we do now. You might want to give it some thought. Easy low cost low impact solution to power up your boat if you are going to do a few short cruises and overnights.
Interesting idea Tom to use a portable jump start battery. I have yet to put a battery in my sun cat. Do you just clip the clamps from the jump starter to the connections on the boat? Is it enough to power the exterior anchor lights and cabin light? I have a 500 Amp instant jump starter and may just give this a try.
Shawn, I can't remember the capacity but I have the smallest jump starter that Harbor Freight makes. So far it has been up to the task. Yes you just clip the large alligator clamps to the wires that attache to the positive and negative battery posts. If you already own a Jump stater it's a no brainier to try it out. I have a bulk head mounted strap that I hold the jump starter in place. It's not heavy but you certainly don't want it banging around. Price was right too, $39.
I use all the house lights on the boat but honestly not very much. For an anchor light I use a portable LED light that runs on AA batteries. Very bright. My GPS is also a portable Garmin 78sc running on AA batteries. My sounder runs on the house power and is the largest consummer of electric.
Tom L.
I used a garden tractor/motorcycle battery from Walmart in our Suncat with an inexpensive solar charger from Harbor Freight to keep it charged. Very easy to get in and out. Plenty of power for our needs.
Tom,
Perhaps straying slightly off topic, but following your thread about using a depth sounder. Did you install your transducer inside the boat or through hull? If inside the boat, how did you do it and how well does it work?
Thanks,
Ron
I installed the transducer inside the boat on the centerline. I cut an access panel through the cabin bench seat in the internal bridge deck just aft of the bulkhead leading to the forward locker. I had to remove the foam in that area. I sanded and cleaned the hull well then sealed the transducer to the inside of the hull with clear silicone. It works fine, is out of the way and can't be knocked loose by gear. It is surrounded by foam.
It is a very inexpensive Hawkeye sounder so I think any transducer can be internally mounted. No holes in the boat...that's a good thing. There maybe some exotic forward looking units that have to be mounted externally.
Tom L.
Thanks Tom. How hard was it to remove the foam to get to the hull in that area?
Ron
Ron, it's not hard to remove the foam. It is messy because it has to be removed in little chunks. I used a sharp knife + hack saw blade and just hacked away small chunks at a time. It's like styrofoam. I had to make the cavity big enough to get a palm sander to sand the interior of the hull. Used a shop vac to clean up. It wasn't hard at all.
Tom
Hi Tom L., Capt_Nemo,
I'm with you, I really enjoy the simple back to basics sailing. Not only less to go wrong, but somehow more satisfying. Like Capt_Nemo I downsized from a bigger boat which had everything electric/electronic you could imagine. So much that it needed 2 wind turbines and 4 solar panels to keep it all going! My day job is electronic/electrical advisor for a group of marine chandleries, I have to keep up to date with all the latest gizmos. I love all that high tech stuff, but for relaxation it's nice to get away from it all.
For overnights we have two "D" cell LED lanterns in the cabin. For nav/anchor lights we use those really excellent Navisafe LED battery operated lights. They're magnetically attached, they even float right side up, so could be used as MOB lights. We have handheld VHF with a spare battery, the new ones with Lithium batteries seem to retain their charge for months. For cell phone we keep a couple of those lithium power bank USB chargers, and the phone is in a water proof case. We have a battery operated GPS which we hardly ever use. Not forgetting the good old magnetic compass, no power needed!
The only thing I sometimes think I might add would be a depth sounder, although the waters round here are pretty easy to read by color. I'd probably power it with one of those small sealed lead-acid batteries like you find inside a computer UPS. I would definitely go for transducer inside the hull, the less holes in a boat the better!
Derek
Ron After this weekend I am going to rethink the transducer location. It was very windy and I found the sounder showing errors a lot. I think maybe the transducer is too far forward and is seeing too much turbulence/bubbles, death to a sounder. This is one of the reasons I opted to install using silicone instead of epoxy so I could change locations. I have heard others mount in the cabin seat openings picking either side of the keel. I don't know but this weekend was not satisfactory. It could be the Hawkeye is not up to snuff...it is very inexpensive but I have heard others have had satisfactory results. More to follow in the coming weeks/months.
I was very pleased with the tacking angles Friday as we beat up Clearwater from Seminole ramp to Caladiese. I think it was blowing about 15 +.
Tom L.
I'm also interested to hear what location works best for your sounder Tom. Seems that mounting it under one of the cockpit seats would be a whole lot easier access-wise. I've heard of using plumber putty as one way to mount it temporarily when you are trying to find the best location for it.
I had heard that too Shawn but I think it's an altogether different issue when sailing or motoring in normal conditions and when sailing in windy conditions. I had my transducer in for several months and thought it was doing fine until last week when we were sailing in 20 knots of wind. I had regular error messages. It is not difficult to mount the transducer using silicone seal. I can easily relocate the unit. I think my next step will be to mount it under one of the berths near a lift off cover in the cabin. That would be about midships and hopefully will eliminate turbulent bubbles.
Tom L.
Doesn't heeling introduce large errors?
Heeling doesn't normally cause an error reading. The angle of the transducer can handle heel angles. If it did cause an error it would not be an error message but may be a slightly different depth reading. Error indicators are bars or blinking symbols from the meter. I am getting error indicators. I think caused by turbulence or air bubbles going across the transducer face.
Tom L.
I didn't mean an instrument error.
My trig days were decades ago but if I am anywhere near right - a 20' heel at 20 foot depth would indicate about 25 feet. I realize that depth is probably going to be more critical when you're poking in somewhere and therefore probably not heeling much, but it can be a big factor and I wondered if the instrument made any provision for it. Gyro depth finders anyone?
My Lead Line, used on a Sun Cat, has NEVER given me an Error Message.
Instead, it provided only dependable depth readings while using NO ELECTRONS!
capt_nemo
Capt. Nemo = Mark Twain!
Lead Line. Although cheap and reliable not very practical when beating up the ICW in 15 to 17 knots of wind while trying to go as far beyond the marked channel as prudent. We did more than thirty tacks beating from Seminole ramp to Caladisi last Friday. Great sail. I would have been exhausted if I had been tacking a sloop, as it was we just had a nice robust sail. I was really pleased with the tacking angles of the Sun Cat. Love that one and only sail to deal with. No jib sheet required. We would beat across the channel until we read 5' of water then tack back. Sometimes it got down to 4'-6" before we would come about. Some places we could go beyond the marked channel several hundred yards others 200 feet. The charts were marked "reported shoaling" turned out that was right some places others not.
For navigating unknown waters in inland bays I feel the sounder is the second most important instrument. The compass is first. I have a back up lead line but never have used it except to practice. I was never comfortable trying to accurately sound 4 feet vs 5 feet.
Tom L.
I'm quite familiar with both Seminole Ramp, the narrow ICW channel leading to Caladesi Is., and the boat traffic usually found there.
And, I'm glad you had a great sail and are pleased with the tacking angles of the Sun Cat.
However, I feel that my brief comment requires further explanation.
As a "seat of the pants" minimalist small sailboat (Sun Cat) sailor I can't even imagine short tacking "...more than thirty tacks..." in "15 to 17" knot winds to arrive at an objective. Not when there is a perfectly good outboard that needs to be exercised. And, with charts to study, ability to read the water (sunlight and weather permitting), and a pivoting centerboard, in my opinion there is no need for a depth sounder on a small sailboat. My lead line is primarily used to determine water depths in gunk holes and prospective anchorages for proper anchor rode length to achieve at least a 7:1 scope.
As a more prudent large sailboat skipper caught 30 miles out in the Atlantic headed for Charleston Harbor when the storm winds hit, tacking was also out of the question considering the direction of wind/waves and "prime directive" to SAFELY minimize the time my vessel and crew are exposed to danger! It still took 10 hours of wave pounding UNDER POWER to reach a safe harbor 30 miles distant.
With regard to depth sounders, as a large sailboat skipper who found it necessary to navigate 20 miles down the Northern Chesapeake in very dense fog, I followed a 15-20ft. depth contour off the Eastern Shore using chart, compass, sounder and knot/log to safely avoid the large shipping channel on a parallel course. The large container ship still startled me with a blast of his horn just to let me know he was nearby.
Preparing a large Trawler for live aboard cruising and the Bahamas, the old depth sounder, which worked but sometimes gave erratic readings, was supplemented by an additional new depth sounder for redundancy and safety.
So you see, I have used and do believe in depth sounders as invaluable navigational assets on larger cruising vessels and fixed keel sailboats of any size.
capt_nemo
I really don't understand your dissertation. The Cat boat is a really great boat to do short tacking with since you only need to steer the boat no jib to haul. So I will stick with my sounder because i really don't like to use the motor and I want to go to the limits of the deep water before tacking. It is really enjoyable to sail this little boat in those conditions.
I do agree that the sounder is more valuable on keel boats. But it is also more valuable in shallow waters like the west coast of Florida. My sailing experience is over 50 years on the Great Lakes and East Coast. I retired in 2000 and cruised aboard our boat. We started in the North Channel of Lake Huron and cruised to the Bahamas and then for 4 years migrated back and forth between The Bahamas and The Chesapeake. I really learned not to rely on engine power but the ability to sail the boat in nearly all weather conditions. I remember one time returning from the islands our weather window closed. We got nailed in the Gulf Stream and had to sail. I used the radar to keep tract of freighters as they really can't see a 38 foot boat in rough sea conditions but I could see them. It was blowing 30 plus from the North against the stream. Big waves. We had double reefed with a small jib and we still buried the bow. It was rough but under power it would have been down right dangerous. Sails up give a sailboat a lot of stability in waves. Under power we would have been slamming from one side to the other.
Tom L.
Tom L.,
I believe we are at an impasse over what started as a simple difference of personal opinion regarding the use of depth sounders on small centerboard sailboats.
And, since I've failed in my attempt to sufficiently clarify my opinion to merit understanding, I'll not waste any more of my time, yours, or fellow sailors in belaboring the difference.
capt_nemo
I have a perfectly good depth sounder on Kailani.....it's called a centerboard! ;D ;D If it bumps, I come about. Sort of kidding but I don't have a depth sounder. Haven't had one on my last four(all shoal draft) boats. One of the joys of Suncats and Horizon Cats is that with a little local knowledge and prudence, groundings are rare and not usually a big deal. I am reminded of the words of an old salt oft quoted...."Man ain't gone aground ain't sailed vurra' fur. Not that grounding is fun but it happens to the best of us. Recently I was headed down the Peace river just below the I75 bridge where the water can be really thin and not paying close enough attention to the markers. Felt the board bump the ground. A sharp turn to port put me back in deeper water averting a grounding. That said, having a sounder on these boats has its merits. Merely a matter of preference.;D Good points from all quarters!
To those interested. I sailed today in wind conditions that were around 15 knots. The sounder worked perfect no error messages. It was deeper water,Lake Harris, from 10 to 18 feet and the wind was lighter so the healing angles were lower. We had white caps but the waves were longer. I am guessing the water wasn't as turbulent. I may decide to leave the transducer up in front of the keel. Like I said earlier it may take some time to try a new location or maybe not.
BTW it was stellar sailing today. 70 degree temps and plenty of wind. Perfect winter sailing in Florida.
Tom L.
Quote from: Tom L. on November 23, 2015, 12:28:21 AM
I really don't understand your dissertation. The Cat boat is a really great boat to do short tacking with since you only need to steer the boat no jib to haul. So I will stick with my sounder because i really don't like to use the motor and I want to go to the limits of the deep water before tacking. It is really enjoyable to sail this little boat in those conditions.
I do agree that the sounder is more valuable on keel boats. But it is also more valuable in shallow waters like the west coast of Florida. My sailing experience is over 50 years on the Great Lakes and East Coast. I retired in 2000 and cruised aboard our boat. We started in the North Channel of Lake Huron and cruised to the Bahamas and then for 4 years migrated back and forth between The Bahamas and The Chesapeake. I really learned not to rely on engine power but the ability to sail the boat in nearly all weather conditions. I remember one time returning from the islands our weather window closed. We got nailed in the Gulf Stream and had to sail. I used the radar to keep tract of freighters as they really can't see a 38 foot boat in rough sea conditions but I could see them. It was blowing 30 plus from the North against the stream. Big waves. We had double reefed with a small jib and we still buried the bow. It was rough but under power it would have been down right dangerous. Sails up give a sailboat a lot of stability in waves. Under power we would have been slamming from one side to the other.
Tom L.
Just catching up on older posts. Tom...I totally agree.
1- the Suncat is a wonderful boat to short tack. Talk about "lazy man's" tacking
2- don't know how the discussion started....but I got caught out onnce in a full gale coming down from Charleston to Jacksonville.
It was "crazy".....34 gusting 42 into the stream. Reefed way down......I couldn't imagine trying to motor in that stuff!! It truly
would be dangerous!! Far more control under sail and much steadier boat! Just my 1 1/2 cents
Glad ya got your depth sounder figured out. I always figured my centerboard down going "clink, clunk" worked pretty good too :-)