Horizon vs Sun Cat

[Tom L.]

Ron, it's not hard to remove the foam. It is messy because it has to be removed in little chunks. I used a sharp knife + hack saw blade and just hacked away small chunks at a time. It's like styrofoam. I had to make the cavity big enough to get a palm sander to sand the interior of the hull. Used a shop vac to clean up. It wasn't hard at all.
Tom

[Aldebaran_III]

Hi Tom L., Capt_Nemo,

I'm with you, I really enjoy the simple back to basics sailing. Not only less to go wrong, but somehow more satisfying. Like Capt_Nemo I downsized from a bigger boat which had everything electric/electronic you could imagine. So much that it needed 2 wind turbines and 4 solar panels to keep it all going! My day job is electronic/electrical advisor for a group of marine chandleries, I have to keep up to date with all the latest gizmos. I love all that high tech stuff, but for relaxation it's nice to get away from it all.
For overnights we have two "D" cell LED lanterns in the cabin. For nav/anchor lights we use those really excellent Navisafe LED battery operated lights. They're magnetically attached, they even float right side up, so could be used as MOB lights. We have handheld VHF with a spare battery, the new ones with Lithium batteries seem to retain their charge for months. For cell phone we keep a couple of those lithium power bank USB chargers, and the phone is in a water proof case. We have a battery operated GPS which we hardly ever use. Not forgetting the good old magnetic compass, no power needed!
The only thing I sometimes think I might add would be a depth sounder, although the waters round here are pretty easy to read by color. I'd probably power it with one of those small sealed lead-acid batteries like you find inside a computer UPS. I would definitely go for transducer inside the hull, the less holes in a boat the better!

Derek

[Tom L.]

Ron After this weekend I am going to rethink the transducer location. It was very windy and I found the sounder showing errors a lot. I think maybe the transducer is too far forward and is seeing too much turbulence/bubbles, death to a sounder. This is one of the reasons I opted to install using silicone instead of epoxy so I could change locations. I have heard others mount in the cabin seat openings picking either side of the keel. I don't know but this weekend was not satisfactory. It could be the Hawkeye is not up to snuff...it is very inexpensive but I have heard others have had satisfactory results. More to follow in the coming weeks/months.

I was very pleased with the tacking angles Friday as we beat up Clearwater from Seminole ramp to Caladiese. I think it was blowing about 15 +.

Tom L.

[Bilge Rat]

I'm also interested to hear what location works best for your sounder Tom. Seems that mounting it under one of the cockpit seats would be a whole lot easier access-wise. I've heard of using plumber putty as one way to mount it temporarily when you are trying to find the best location for it.

[Tom L.]

I had heard that too Shawn but I think it's an altogether different issue when sailing or motoring in normal conditions and when sailing in windy conditions. I had my transducer in for several months and thought it was doing fine until last week when we were sailing in 20 knots of wind. I had regular error messages. It is not difficult to mount the transducer using silicone seal. I can easily relocate the unit. I think my next step will be to mount it under one of the berths near a lift off cover in the cabin. That would be about midships and hopefully will eliminate turbulent bubbles.

Tom L.

[nicktulloh]

Doesn't heeling introduce large errors?

[Tom L.]

Heeling doesn't normally cause an error reading. The angle of the transducer can handle heel angles. If it did cause an error it would not be an error message but may be a slightly different depth reading. Error indicators are bars or blinking symbols from the meter. I am getting error indicators. I think caused by turbulence or air bubbles going across the transducer face.

Tom L.

[nicktulloh]

I didn't mean an instrument error.

My trig days were decades ago but if I am anywhere near right - a 20' heel at 20 foot depth would indicate about 25 feet. I realize that depth is probably going to be more critical when you're poking in somewhere and therefore probably not heeling much, but it can be a big factor and I wondered if the instrument made any provision for it. Gyro depth finders anyone?

[capt_nemo]

My Lead Line, used on a Sun Cat, has NEVER given me an Error Message.

Instead, it provided only dependable depth readings while using NO ELECTRONS!

capt_nemo

[Tim Gardner]

Capt. Nemo = Mark Twain!

[Tom L.]

Lead Line. Although cheap and reliable not very practical when beating up the ICW in 15 to 17 knots of wind while trying to go as far beyond the marked channel as prudent. We did more than thirty tacks beating from Seminole ramp to Caladisi last Friday. Great sail. I would have been exhausted if I had been tacking a sloop, as it was we just had a nice robust sail.  I was really pleased with the tacking angles of the Sun Cat. Love that one and only sail to deal with. No jib sheet required. We would beat across  the channel until we read 5' of water then tack back. Sometimes it got down to 4'-6" before we would come about.  Some places we could go beyond the marked channel several hundred yards others 200 feet. The charts were marked "reported shoaling" turned out that was right some places others not.

For navigating unknown waters in inland bays I feel the sounder is the second most important instrument. The compass is first. I have a back up lead line but never have used it except to practice. I was never comfortable trying to accurately sound 4 feet vs 5 feet.

Tom L.

[capt_nemo]

I'm quite familiar with both Seminole Ramp, the narrow ICW channel leading to Caladesi Is., and the boat traffic usually found there.

And, I'm glad you had a great sail and are pleased with the tacking angles of the Sun Cat.

However, I feel that my brief comment requires further explanation.

As a "seat of the pants" minimalist small sailboat (Sun Cat) sailor I can't even imagine short tacking "...more than thirty tacks..." in "15 to 17" knot winds to arrive at an objective. Not when there is a perfectly good outboard that needs to be exercised. And, with charts to study, ability to read the water (sunlight and weather permitting), and a pivoting centerboard, in my opinion there is no need for a depth sounder on a small sailboat. My lead line is primarily used to determine water depths in gunk holes and prospective anchorages for proper anchor rode length to achieve at least a 7:1 scope.

As a more prudent large sailboat skipper caught 30 miles out in the Atlantic headed for Charleston Harbor when the storm winds hit, tacking was also out of the question considering the direction of wind/waves and "prime directive" to SAFELY minimize the time my vessel and crew are exposed to danger! It still took 10 hours of wave pounding UNDER POWER to reach a safe harbor 30 miles distant.

With regard to depth sounders, as a large sailboat skipper who found it necessary to navigate 20 miles down the Northern Chesapeake in very dense fog, I followed a 15-20ft. depth contour off the Eastern Shore using chart, compass, sounder and knot/log to safely avoid the large shipping channel on a parallel course. The large container ship still startled me with a blast of his horn just to let me know he was nearby.

Preparing a large Trawler for live aboard cruising and the Bahamas, the old depth sounder, which worked but sometimes gave erratic readings, was supplemented by an additional new depth sounder for redundancy and safety.

So you see, I have used and do believe in depth sounders as invaluable navigational assets on larger cruising vessels and fixed keel sailboats of any size.

capt_nemo

[Tom L.]

I really don't understand your dissertation. The Cat boat is a really great boat to do short tacking with since you only need to steer the boat no jib to haul. So I will stick with my sounder because i really don't like to use the motor and I want to go to the limits of the deep water before tacking. It is really enjoyable to sail this little boat in those conditions.

I do agree that the sounder is more valuable on keel boats. But it is also more valuable in shallow waters like the west coast of Florida.  My sailing experience is over 50 years on the Great Lakes and East Coast. I retired in 2000 and cruised aboard our boat. We started in the North Channel of Lake Huron and cruised to the Bahamas and then for 4 years migrated back and forth between The Bahamas and The Chesapeake. I really learned not to rely on engine power but the ability to sail the boat in nearly all weather conditions. I remember one time returning from the islands our weather window closed. We got nailed in the Gulf Stream and had to sail. I used the radar to keep tract of freighters as they really can't see a 38 foot boat in rough sea conditions but I could see them. It was blowing 30 plus from the North against the stream. Big waves. We had double reefed with a small jib and we still buried the bow. It was rough but under power it would have been down right dangerous. Sails up give a sailboat a lot of stability in waves.  Under power we would have been slamming from one side to the other.

Tom L.

[capt_nemo]

Tom L.,

I believe we are at an impasse over what started as a simple difference of personal opinion regarding the use of depth sounders on small centerboard sailboats.

And, since I've failed in my attempt to sufficiently clarify my opinion to merit understanding, I'll not waste any more of my time, yours, or fellow sailors in belaboring the difference.

capt_nemo

[Craig]

I have a perfectly good depth sounder on Kailani.....it's called a centerboard! If it bumps, I come about. Sort of kidding but I don't have a depth sounder. Haven't had one on my last four(all shoal draft) boats. One of the joys of Suncats and Horizon Cats is that with a little local knowledge and prudence, groundings are rare and not usually a big deal. I am reminded of the words of an old salt oft quoted...."Man ain't gone aground ain't sailed vurra' fur. Not that grounding is fun but it happens to the best of us. Recently I was headed down the Peace river just below the I75 bridge where the water can be really thin and  not paying close enough attention to the markers. Felt the board bump the ground. A sharp turn to port put me back in deeper water averting a grounding. That said, having a sounder on these boats has its merits. Merely a matter of preference. Good points from all quarters!