I looked down into the bilge yesterday with a flashlight and did see they there was water there. In using the bilge pump, I do not see any water coming out a scupper. I don't know if the pump does not work or if the pump does not remove all the water. I do not see any water anywhere else in the boat.
I have searched the archives, and see where the drains and the center board raising assembly could be the sources of the water. Is this correct? What is the proper way to fix these areas?
Should the bilge be bone dry?. Is this something to worry about?
All ideas and suggestions appreciated.
My bilge stayed DRY for the 5 1/2 years that I owned "Frisky", a 2010 Sun Cat. I did keep the boat covered at all times when not in use.
Don't panic yet.
First, there may not be a lot of water in the bilge if only looking at illuminated "shiney" water surface. If you can get your hand or something else down in there to measure it would help. Even so, a build-up could have taken place over a period of time. Completely dry out the bilge, sail the boat, and expose it to some weather while frequently checking for water to help determine the cause.
Second, although the bilge pump isn't sucking up and discharging water it doesn't necessarily mean that it is broken. Those bilge pumps do not evacuate ALL the water when operating correctly. If there is a significant amount of water in the bilge the pump may indeed be broken.
Since access to my bilge was far less than satisfactory, one of the first mods I made to my Sun Cat was to enlarge the opening to the bilge FOR PROPER INSPECTION AND FULL ACCESS.
I've included a few photos to illustrate the process.
capt_nemo
BEFORE
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/CPYOA/Com-Pac%20Sun%20Cat%20Mods/139.jpg) (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/CPYOA/media/Com-Pac%20Sun%20Cat%20Mods/139.jpg.html)
DURING
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/CPYOA/Com-Pac%20Sun%20Cat%20Mods/150.jpg) (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/CPYOA/media/Com-Pac%20Sun%20Cat%20Mods/150.jpg.html)
AFTER
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/CPYOA/Com-Pac%20Sun%20Cat%20Mods/155.jpg) (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/CPYOA/media/Com-Pac%20Sun%20Cat%20Mods/155.jpg.html)
Hi Captain!
THANKS for getting me out of panic mode!. I'll take it step by step and try to find the cause of the water.
My pendant does squirt a bit of water. I think I'll take off the cover and check the seals.
Peter
I had water in the bilge and in the cabin floor on our third sail. I called Gerry at the factory and he suggested that I check the seals around the cockpit drains at the stern. Sure enough, that was the problem. After I repaired those, my cabin floor and bilge have been completely dry.
This is the amount of water that I have. It does not show I the cabin.
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/CPYOA/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpeg) (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/CPYOA/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpeg.html) k hi
Glad you've taken a deep breath Peter, and are approaching the problem methodically.
That looks like a few inches of water in the bilge, which the manual lever operated bilge pump should evacuate.
Is there an INTAKE hose going down into the bilge from the pump? An EXHAUST hose from the pump to the thru hull fitting?
If pump hoses are properly connected, and pick-up (intake) hose is there lying in several inches of water and not pumping, recommend removing pump and checking it out thoroughly. The rubber bellows and valves may be stuck, torn, dry rotted, or otherwise not functioning properly. Fortunately most pumps have rebuild kits to address such problems.
Remember, it takes several good strokes to prime that pump and get it working depending on mounting height above the bilge. (I've had them on both small and large sailboats.)
Also, check the seals around cockpit drains at the stern as Catawampus points out. (Several Owners have reported leaks there over the years.)
capt_nemo
Yep, when mine leaked it was where the port side cockpit drain goes through the transom. The centerboard tube is another popular spot but I was able to eliminate that possibility because there was dust. I re-sealed the centerboard tube and all cockpit drains out of an abundance of caution but I'm sure only one was really leaking.
Your pump should remove most of that water. As Nemo says, it takes several strokes before it starts coming out but the sound and feel of the pump should tell you whether you're moving water. Depending on the position of the intake hose, the pump should leave less than an inch in the bilge. I got that remaining water out with a towel. Cranked the nose of the trailer way up and tossed it down there through a cockpit locker. Wring out, repeat until it comes up dry.
Another possibility: that water didn't come up through the hull, it came down from the sky. If the mast is folded and left uncovered, you have a mast-sized rain collection hole and the water will make its way to the bilge. Tasting it is one way to tell. If you're like me and don't want to taste bilge water, a hydrometer will tell you whether it's fresh or salt.
Scupper repair. When I had the boat in the driveway for cleaning, I did start to disassemble one of the scupper. I removed the screws that fasten the white cover on. That's as far as I got as the cover seemed to be very stuck on. Being unfamiliar with the scupper I did not want to break any thing. What is the proper procedure for repairing the scupper?. Best way to get that cover off without breaking it?. Are there parts that I will need besides marine sealant?
Oh, I'm pretty sure now the pump is not working. I have really cranked on it for some time with no water, or change in feel or sound. I will check that the pickup hose is properly placed first. If not, I'll remove and repair the pump. I love the boat and these boat fixing tasks!!
Peter
I too was unable to remove the covers at the stern, but i determined that the leak was beyond the covers where the pvc tubes meet the inside wall of the transom. Using a small wooden dowel as an applicator I worked sealant into those gaps while holding the black rubber flaps up with my other hand. I cannot remember now which sealant product I used (it was 3.5 years ago).
Inspecting these is part of my regular pre-launch routine. I also check the bolts that hold the rudder mounting plate to the transom with a wrench. These were loose when we got the boat too. I paid a teenager to get into one of the cockpit lockers with a monkey wrench and hold the nuts inside the transom while I tightened the bolts from the outside.
Peter I have the same problems with my 01 Sun Cat. First order of business was to get a rebuild kit for the bilge pump. That took care of that issue.
I also had the transomplate that secures the rudder come loose. Last month in some really choppy following seas with 20 mph winds it started moving around. I didn't like that the bolts through that plate were so close together, plus the movement wallowed out the holes in the transom. To get to that area I removed the shell that the tiller passes through. I drilled out the existing 4 holes for 3/8" bolts (original were 1/4"). I drilled four more holes at the corners of the mounting plate as high and low as I could. Because of the lugs that have the pivot bolt for the rudder there was only room for 1/4" bolts in the corners. Finally I had (2) 3/8" x 2"x 10" long vertical aluminum packing plates. I think that it is secure now.
I haven't found the leaks but I still get too much water from somewhere. Not rain water, I repaired all those leaks, but somewhere from either the CB trunk or those impossible to see transom drains. I will work on those issues in the off season next summer.
Tom L.
Steve so as I understand you sealed the cockpit drain pipes from the outside. Is that correct?
Tom L.
I worked on the bilge water this morning. The pick up tube was positioned correctly but the pump was not working. I played with it some, putting the pickup hose into a bucket of water and getting the pump to work somewhat. So I do need to re-build the pump. I was able to get the bilge pumped dry.
I called Hutchins about the scupper. The sell a complete set of three pieces for less than $5. The are installed with marine sealant can be removed/cut with a putty knife. Matt said that the sealant can shrink over time and be the source of the bilge water.
What I'm going to do is get the pump fixed, then watch the bilge for additional leakage. Because, who knows, maybe that water is old, maybe there is no current leak.
Thanks for all the help!
Tom,
You are correct. I worked from the outside to seal the gaps between the drain pvc pipes and the holes in the transom.
You can order the pump repair kit from Defender: item 500855 Bosworth G500SK Guzzler Pump Repair Kit
This definitely improved the performance of my pump.
On my 02 SunCat I get about that amount of water in the bilge during a day sail.
I'm pretty sure I have it narrowed down to the 50 screws penetrating the hull around the centerboard flange.
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that they could leak after 13 years.
-Kevin
Quote from: Catawampus on November 04, 2015, 06:32:20 PM
Tom,
You are correct. I worked from the outside to seal the gaps between the drain pvc pipes and the holes in the transom.
That's what I did too. Cleaned the area out with various little bits on a high-speed air tool then used stick epoxy pushed into the resulting groove. Caulk under the white plastic cover plate that holds the rubber flapper.
The thing about PVC is, nothing can bond to it except more PVC using PVC cement. Even 5200 or fiberglass resin won't really stick to it. You can fiberglass all the way around it and hold it still or epoxy all the way around it and hold it still but boats flex and without bonding "still" is a relative thing. So I figured epoxy around the transom edge would hold it still pretty well and caulk would seal it pretty well. It didn't leak again while I owned the boat but no doubt it will again some day if the boat lives long enough.
I rebuilt the Guzzler 500 bilge pump today. It was easy and simple. It was nice to have written instruction s from the manufacturers website.
http://www.thebosworthco.com/instructions/flapper_valve_replacement_guzzler_500_pumps.pdf
http://www.thebosworthco.com/instructions/diaphragm_replacement_guzzler_400_and_500_pumps.pdf
The pump works much better now!. Ie: it actually empties the bilge.
Now I will be checking the bilge to see if there is a leak.
Peter
What was wrong with it? Were parts deteriorated or was it plugged up or what?
Tom,
I really could not see anything obviously wrong. There was evidence that some one had done some previous work on it. Lots of silicone sealant. I cleaned that all out, replaced the valves and diagram, and all was well.
Peter
When I rebuilt my pump I really couldn't see why it didn't work. All the parts seemed OK but I think they get hard and the flapper valves don't seal properly. Any how after the rebuild all is well.
Tom I did as you described to the transom drains. I removed the flapper valves. There is an obvious seam between the PVC tube and fiberglass transom. With a Dremel I cut a 3'16" "V" groove that cut into the PVC and the fiberglass transom, and sealed the groove with Boatlife, life seal. It's a fair adhesive but more importantly it remains flexible. I did the two cockpit drains and the center drain for the fuel tank storage area in the back of the cockpit. After sailing all day Saturday I had a few ounces of water. I think that may have been left over and seeped out from under the concrete ballast. The only way I can get all the water out is with a wet vac. That works very well.
I wish I could yank out those stupid PVC drain tubes and install thru hull fittings with proper marine hose with double clamps but I don't think there is any way to access the transom to install thru hulls.
Tom L.
Tom,
I've had the same idea about the thru hulls, especially for the lower drains. On my list to tackle someday.
Do you think it's possible to access by removing the tiller horn?
-Kevin
Not possible on my boat. Just under the tiller horn is the top of the gas tank storage unit which goes almost all the way to the transom and is permanently glassed in. In fact I had a hard time reaching the nuts that hold the rudder casting to the transom. There is just enough room to get a hand and part of your arm in there but I could not reach to the bottom of the hull, too tight. Taking the tiller horn out is a real slow job. It is sealed in with a tenacious sealant and I had to slide a flat blade and pry out a little at a time being careful to not scratch the back of the cockpit and not break the horn.
Tom L.
Tom, thanks, yes I forgot about that gas tank locker being in the way!
Kevin
I was told to gain access to the inside of the transom, you have to crawl through the cockpit storage. I did this when my rudder bracket was loose and needed to be tighten up. It's a tight squeeze.
Do you mean enter via the cockpit seat lockers? No way I could do that. You would have to be a really small person to do that.
Tom L.
Tom L.,
Sounds like its time for a crash DIET in order to enter the locker and access the rear of the transom!
Remember to go in feet first.
Seriously Tom, do you have a "small" friend that would donate an hour of their time for a good cause?
capt_nemo
We have a youth program at our sailing club. I hired a teenager to get in to the seat locker with a wrench while I worked outside with a ratchet.
Steve, I was able to gain access to the bolts that hold the rudder in place by removing the tunnel that houses the tiller. It was tight but very reachable with out crawling into the bilge. In fact I drilled out and replaced the original four 1/4"bolts with 3/8" bolts and then drilled four more holes in the casting as far out on the perimeter of the casting as possible to spread out the load and reduce the leaver arm dis sadvantage of the relatively small casting for the rudder pivot. Because there are large lugs near the corners those four bolts had to be 1/4". Still the unit is now many times more secure than before.
Capt with all due respect the job of trying to remove the PVC drain pipes is well beyond a an hour or so and would require some skill with grinders to remove all the fiberglass that is tabbing in the tubes. Then the addition of new cloth and resin. Making a suitable surface to mount three bronze thru hulls. A big job dealing with the nastiest of stuff, fiberglass grinds. Sorry I don't have any friends that I would ask to do that.
I actually think if I ever decided I had to replace the tubes it would be easier to cut away some of the fuel storage locker. Then put it back in after the work at the transom was done. The good news I think the leaks are permanently sealed. My comments were mostly an observation as others have said too it's a poor method to drain the cockpit. PVC and fiberglass don't bond.
Tom L.