Hi, all. I'm new to this website and am considering buying a new Com-Pac 23 with inboard engine. I have an old CP23 now with an outboard and sail on a lake near Dallas. I'd like to explain my interest in an inboard and get some feedback. (I've already perused the website looking at threads on this issue.)
I have very little mechanical capability, although I can follow directions and do what a layperson is supposed to be able to do regarding basic maintenance. For example, for my current outboard I use the two additives my mechanic tells me to add to the fuel, I run the motor regularly so the fuel doesn't gum up, etc. I've even read the manual!
I understand the advantages of an outboard on a CP23: 1) It's relatively easy for someone like me to just remove it (well, my Mercury 9.9 is a bit over 100 lbs.!) and take it to a shop instead of waiting for a qualified mechanic to come to the boat to fix or do maintenance on an inboard. 2) Any fumes are kept outside of the cabin instead of accumulating inside the cabin. 3) It's a whole lot cheaper to buy and maintain an outboard! 4) An inboard involves two thru-hull piercings that need to be properly sealed at all times. 5) An inboard takes up space that could otherwise be used for storage. 6) An inboard can be noisy for those in the cabin.
But here is why I'm considering an inboard engine: I'm currently 58. I want to be able to do extensive sailing in the Gulf (launching, say, from Pensacola) or on Lake Michigan (launching, say, from Michigan City). I also want to sail on my Dallas area lake. I like heavy weather (20-25 knots) and want to be able to single-hand in heavy weather. Neither my wife nor I can use a pull cord on an outboard (she's weak and I have an injury), so we have to rely on an electric starter. Handling a heavy outboard in heavy weather when single-handing is no easy task (raising, lowering, etc.). I think an inboard engine would be more reliable and easier to use—thus safer for heavy weather sailing and extensive cruising. It would also allow for covering greater distances when cruising. Another advantage: better weight distribution.
What would I be getting myself into as a mere layperson who would have to rely on a qualified mechanic to service my engine? Does anyone on this website have an inboard engine on a CP23 who has come to regret it? I'll appreciate any advice you folks may want to offer regarding having an inboard engine on a CP23 instead of an outboard.
Since you are buying a new boat you will have years of trouble free engine service if you simply do basic maintenance. A diesel on a 23 is overkill but your reasons are solid. I would get what works best for you. Keep in mind you will most likely take a larger loss when it comes time to sell. But that may not be an issue for you.
There are other ways to handle on Outboard. The electric start as you know and there is a motor mount that has a pneumatic cylinder that will lift the motor. You would have to push it down along with the motor weight but the lifting back up is done mostly by the mount.
Tom L.
"Handling a heavy outboard in heavy weather when single-handing is no easy task (raising, lowering, etc.)."
Another couple of options for this...
http://www.garelick.com/Manual-Operated-Easy-Pump-Hydraulic-Lift-Outboard-Motor-Bracket
http://www.bobsmachine.com/Kicker-Jac-100-300000.htm
Shawn
Souris.....I am/was an outboard guy. I saved up and bought my first on at 16 yrs old for $50 bucks and have had them ever since (I'm now 57). I can do most of the maintenance including changing impellers etc - not a big deal. You can imagine my concern about buying an eclipse with a diesel, but I did. I researched and listed the pros and cons and in the end I went diesel. I worried about how to maintain , start, work on, etc this new format. Having the Eclipse a year and going through winterization and then recommissioning I can tell you in many ways it's easier than an outboard. I wanted to learn so if I was sailing and no mechanics nearby when there was a problem, I would know what to do.
All the reasons which made me lean towards the diesel are true. The "push of a button" to start, the lack of cavitation in waves, the difficulty reaching back to start, reverse, the ethanol problem with outboards now, the sleek look without it, etc - all worth it. The balance of this Eclipse is fantastic - if it sunk tomorrow (God forbid) I would take the insurance and do it again.
Now, there will be many guys who will reply and make a good case for outboards too and they won't be wrong. For me, I am a convert and will never "fear" the diesel again. If you decide to go that way, don't worry about maintenance - you will learn the basics and figure out the rest. At seasons end have a mechanic service just as you would the outboard. The inboard diesel is a beautiful thing.
Good luck
-TED
We went for the inboard diesel in our Horizon Cat and love it! Our reasons are similar to yours and Ted's. I think maintenance issues are are overblown. Diesels don't require all that much! Keep the fuel clean and change oil and they just keep on chuggin'. Most areas (Dallas for sure) have mobile mechanics who specialize in on-boat maintenance. I have had OBs on most of my boats but am happy with the diesel and would not go back. Having the weight down low and more amidships is a definite plus stability and balance-wise. In addition nobody is going to steal your diesel overnight in the hotel parking lot or marina!
One factor not mentioned about an inboard is the heat they give off after they've been used...something to consider in a small cabin in the heat of a southern summer.
I've had diesels on my previous boats (40' steel ketch, Newport 28 and Precision 28) and found them to be trouble free if treated right (make sure you run them under load and be persnickety about fuel quality). If I ever went back to a bigger boat, I'd definitely go the inboard route if I could afford it.
I understand exactly what you are saying about the inboard. I really wish that I had one on my Compac because it extends your range quite a bit. You have a 10 gallon tank and burn about .5 gallons an hour, thus giving you around 20 hours of motoring.
One thing with an inboard is that the boat may hobby horse in bad weather. My Catalina 30 use to do that and it would barely make headway. The thing I did to help was to motor sail into heavy weather.
Yes, you get heat in the cabin, you do have a through hull and a packing gland to deal with, and you loose some storage space, but you gain a lot of other nice features. If you can swing it, I would suggest a max prop or something similar. The propeller can be quite a drag when sailing in light winds.
I'm 68 with a back that is not real reliable and I hear you loud and clear. If I were buying new or even looking used, I would prefer a diesel inboard or even better an electric inboard with batteries used for part of the ballast. The latter is extraordinarily expensive.
Your reasons are sound. I solved some of the problems of lifting, mounting, removing, manually starting and fore to aft trim by switching from a 9.9 hp, 4 stroke with electric start to a sail pro 6hp 4stroke with manual, The manual on the sail pro is very very easy to pull and it can be lifted on a spring assist lift mount with a minimal amount of effort. I can also mount and remove the motor by myself with no stress to the body parts. There is a dramatic difference from the old heavier motor.
Diesels are very reliable and if user maintained properly they should give years of service between the times a mechanic is needed. Making sure you have a good water separator such as a Racor is most important.
At my age, with the Sail Pro, I don't find the motor to be the issue. The lack of standing headroom in the cabin and under the bimini is much further up the list of irritants.
Brackish, I really hear you about the standing headroom. It does a job on your back if you are on the boat for a while. I eventually adjust to it, but I am younger.
If I was going to spend money I would go up in size a little bit. Maybe a Cape Dory 28 or Pearson 303.
I guess I may be somewhat of the dissenting view, esp. on a boat like the Compac 23. I'm still in the hate/love/hate aspect of owning a diesel inboard....
To maximize ease of use the electric motor mount I linked to along with an outboard with electric start, remote controls and steering linked to the rudder would be as easy to use as the inboard, offer far better maneuverability, cost much less, be much easier to service, weight at least 100-150 pounds less, lower yearly service costs, avoid two holes in the boat (either of which could sink the boat if something goes wrong), offer more interior storage, sail better (less drag), quieter/cooler in the cabin, quieter in the cockpit, less exhaust fumes going down wind and would be *dramatically* cheaper to repower when that day comes.
Since moving to a bigger boat (Sabre 28) with an inboard I have wished for a Tohatsu hanging on the transom many times. My diesel inboard is old (35 years) and parts are expensive if available at all. I am *finally* at the point of starting to trust it a bit but it has taken an enormous amount of work and time on my part. As a rough estimate I've probably worked on the engine about 100 hours in the last year and still have (hopefully) a little more to go.
During the survey the engine ran great, started easily and had no problems. Day I brought the Sabre and brought her home the engine died in home port after motoring beautifully for about 7 hours. The high pressure fuel injection pump died. Marine diesel mechanic didn't even want to work on the engine. Due to horrible access and a cascading number of other things it took me 5 weeks to swap out the pump and get the engine running again. During that time I also had the raw water pump rebuilt as it had a bad seal and was leaking which contributed to the difficulties I had in swapping in the injector pump due to having to drill a rusted bolt that I had no access to. I lucked out in being able to find a used high pressure pump for $100. Otherwise I was looking at a $1000 rebuild. Again lucked out in finding the water pump rebuild kit at a consignment shop for $20, otherwise it would have been around $175 in parts. Spent around $45 in fuel filters as well and maybe another $50 replacing cooling hoses as they were a little old and had me concerned.
After getting it running again I was having sporadic issues with #2 cylinder not starting. At the time I thought it was due to air getting into the fuel system which prevents an injector from firing. Spent a lot of time trying to track down an air leak at the injector and swapping fuel lines and such. This went on all season and caused a lot of mistrust.
I also began having overheating issues that progressed over the season to the point where by the end of the season I was running at 1200 RPM and only for short periods of time. This greatly limited the time I could use and what I could use it for.
All in all I lost a huge amount of time on the water that season.
To aid in keeping the engine going I bought a parts engine w/ transmission... $800. Over the winter I tore apart the diesel (again in that cramped space) to look to solve my cooling problems. The internals of the engine were all gunked up and it took quite a bit of work to get them cleaned out and flowing water well again. Probably another $100 in gaskets for this as well as 20 hours or so cleaning everything out and cleaning/painting to parts I was going to reinstall. While I was in there I also did additional preventative maintenance in replacing the exhaust riser which luckily was made from black pipe so it only costed around $150 instead of the $400ish for a factory part. Also needed to replace some of the exhaust hose (at $8 a foot) and will likely need to replace the rest of the run in a year or two.
To try and add to the life of the engine I converted to fresh water cooling. $170 for a used heat exchanger that I completely cleaned out and up, buffed and painted. Had to change my raw water pump to a newer style so that I could use an add on piggy back pump... another $450 or so there. Lots of new hoses... $150ish. Cooling system gaskets $25ish. Re-engineering some of the hard pipe connections between the transmission cooling loop and the water pump... $45ish. Loads of time mounting the heat exchanged and running hoses to test everything.
On the hard the engine seemed to be running fine. Throttle up and kept its cool.
Spent a couple of hours repacking the packing gland which has horrible access to it. Maybe $25 in parts. Next year I need to replace the hose on that system which is a much larger job. Also had to service the seacocks which took a couple of hours.
Had the boat launched and now with load on the engine it was immediately apparent I was again running on a single cylinder. Difference was this time no matter what I did I couldn't get #2 to fire. To say I was a little POed would be an understatement.
After a fair amount of sailers language and lots of time pondering the situation I decided to try pulling/inspecting the injector. As they are mechanical injectors I opened it up and found that the needle valve/pintle was stuck solid in the nozzle. If I had to buy a new injector that is around $600. I previously had cleaned the injectors from my parts engine (if I brought them somewhere it would have been $150ish each) and installed one of them instead. This got the engine running properly on both cylinders and I then brought the engine on a 3 hours cruise back to home port from its winter home. Checking engine temp with an IR thermometer pretty much every 5 minutes... engine stayed cool.
Since then I have had a few more issues in the engine suddenly again not firing on #2 or being incredibly white smoky on start up. Problem is again the injector. It is now sticking open slightly and dumping excess fuel or sticking closed preventing the cylinder from firing. I've removed them and cleaned them a few more times.
The new ULSF diesel seems like it is part of my problems. The injector pump may have failed due to the lower lubricosity of the diesel. The sticking injectors are likely as result of "diesel soap" that is a chemical reaction with the ULSF. My next course of action is pumping out all the fuel in my tank, cleaning the tank and starting again with fresh fuel. If I had someone out to do this for me I got a quote of $550 for fuel polishing.
I'm also adding another Racor 500FG fuel filter ($175) but that is more for piece of mind. I'm not sure it would help the soap issue but it will keep water and most contaminants out of the system. I am hopeful that this will resolve my sticky injector issues.
If I had to pay someone to do all the above I would have been looking at an *enormous* bill. Marine diesel mechanics charge somewhere around $75-$100 per hour and that will include travel time.
Early on I got estimates on repowering... that was $8k engine/transmission alone and would have easily been thousands more in hidden costs and additional yard costs.
When I bought my Compac 23 it came with an old Johnson outboard on it. The Johnson was causing a lot of troubles. I could have rebuilt most of what it needed to get it running correctly for about $200 in parts. I decided to repower with a Tohatsu Sailpro for about $1400. Repowering took about an hour and the Tohatsu was flawless except for one time when I screwed up and overfilled an oil change. On that screwup I just took the engine home and fixed it in my garage easily and quickly with wonderful access. In the 4 or 5 years I owned it I maybe spent $100 maintaining it per the manual and only maybe 2 hours per season. I will easily spend that every season (fuel filters, zincs, oil filter, oil, winterizing coolant....etc..etc)
Now that I am *finally* starting to get my inboard back in shape I understand the ease of use attraction... when things work properly. That can be pretty well duplicated with an outboard as outlined above with the added bonus of much better steering in reverse. Prop walk in reverse is a bit of a PITA that isn't an issue steering an outboard in reverse.
When diesel engines don't work properly an outboard is orders of magnitude easier and cheaper to fix or replace outright. And that is on my diesel which is very simplistic, no glow plugs or any sort of electronics (solenoids) involved in start/stop the engine.
Shawn
That's it in a nutshell!
I recently started a thread about moving my CP 25 down to the Keys, but before doing so, I'd be pulling the Westerbeke and putting in an electric inboard.
I'm working my way down the list and will address the concerns shared by others there, but the posting above summarizes exactly why I'd be pulling a lightly used low hours diesel and going all electric.
Electric works like your lights. Switch on, Switch off. Oh, and 100% of the torque @ 1 RPM. Diesels in sailboats are all overpowered, because they need the torque to start the prop. So the equation (diesel) is imbalanced from the start; too much HP to get the torque you need at 600RPM, and the engine suffers constant abuse because it's never properly loaded ... problems don't start right away, but they do.
And if you (me) are only going to use it 3-4 times a year; that makes for one mad-as-a-wet-hen diesel. Top end drys out, compression goes down, wear goes up, won't start until lubrication flowing, a mess.
Diesels, properly matched to their load, properly run, properly maintained, RUN FOREVER. Look at locomotives...and just remember that locomotive is running a diesel GENERATOR at almost one constant RPM and a fairly consistent load, and there are other GENERATORS that come online sequentially when the load increases. The generators drive ELECTRIC TRACTION MOTORS that turn the wheels ... off the the CP 25 forum now!
I would be very happy we're my 23 to have a diesel. I had such in another boat for twenty years with zero problems. Not the least advantage is that the diesel fuel Economy is far beyond that of an outboard. After six years with an OB I can say there is no love in the hate relationship.
Well a little thread drift here, but since larger (than the 23) boats have been discussed, if it were possible to repower a larger sailboat with a brand new Universal A4 that had electronic ignition and fuel injection, that is exactly what I would do. I had one for 16 years. Quiet, smooth, easy to maintain, only problem I ever had was with the carburetor and even that cost about $40 for a replacement, somewhat less for a rebuild (1990$s) and fuel injection would solve that problem. Since it was used for non marine purposes, parts were available from much less expensive non-marine sources.
Gone, but certainly not forgotten, a victim of liability risk as a result of those not willing to take the time to properly vent before starting and injured as a result. Moyer keeps them alive but not sure I would want one that had been recovered. But new, absolutely.
All: I greatly appreciate all the advice you folks have given me! ~ SSouris
Can't help but jump in here and amplify on the electric post above. Have had power and sail with outboards, gas and diesel inboard engines for 60+ years and the electric power installed in my HC is by far the best, most elegant answer. Four KW Torqeedo with four 205AH batteries gives 30+NM range at 4.5 KT; more range at slower speed and faster travel with shorter range. Three of the batteries are on a tray where the diesel would sit and the forth is buried in the keel forward of the centerboard (space utilization and better ballast). No key to turn, button to press, no heat, no exhaust and almost no noise - just hit the throttle lever and off you go. The only other feature I'd love to have is a feathering prop since I loose between .3 and .5 KT when sailing from the free wheeling fixed pitch prop. Use of the Torqeedo Cruise 4.0 on an outboard bracket with remote control would accomplish the same thing but aesthetically, that didn't work for me.
Well just sitting here after eating too much, which we always plan to do on Thanksgiving, looking at some older threads and saw this one. We just acquired a 23D and have not had a chance to enjoy any benefits or regret any problems, but the previous owners never had any issues with the 10GM Yanmar in her. Not fresh water cooled. It is a 90 with only 356 hours. Certainly you have lost storage area and yes there are now even more thru hulls (No Mas has other thu hulls for head, deck wash down, etc.) but the bilge is bone dry and it looks as if you could eat dinner on it. It has been in the water 24/7, 365 for the past 4+ years.
What i can speak to is the salability of them, they are rare and like all rare items they are desirable. We had been looking for one, and all of them that were in boats that had been taken care of were on on the market only a few weeks and went for a premium. The 12 gallon tank in No Mas, according to Gerry Hutchins, ought to give us 48 hours of steaming at 5 knots if wished and battery charging.
No idea if you are still considering the merits of one, as there are many merits of outboards as well. Our last boat was an outboard and we wanted to have an inboard for many reason including the knowledge of how to maneuver a single screw prop boat since you can't just turn the motor. Any larger boats are going to have one so gotta jump into it eventually!
Hope this find the poster still needing a little input.
No Mas
1990 Yanmar 10GM has about 5 years left, at best, before the block rots out.
Repower early and at your convenience, not in an emergency in the middle of the season.
personal experience?
No, extensive industry experience.
Adjust of course for freshwater use; my estimate should be applied to the saltwater environs I (and most of these boats) frequent.
Cast iron is just that; iron. It's gonna go, either with enough circulation, or because of not enough. Switching gears to Mercruiser/gas engines; I've got a customer who we had to change his exhaust manifolds (raw water cooled) at 7 years; 92 hours. not enough run time, plenty of corrosion time, so the chunks coming off were huge, and blocking passages. We tried back flushing and acid washing first, due to his concern over cost of manifolds, but I had predicted that wouldn't work and was right.
Thanks for the heads up. Our diesel lived in fresh water for its first 8 years (and then only a few months each year)then out of the water for every winter for the next 10 years. It was in brackish water for 4 years 365 till recently and now out of water again for winters. The diesel tech said everything looked great and will have a better idea when we replace the pencil zinc this spring before a spring launch. Will monitor it but it starts on the first try and exhaust looks good. Glad to have it!
Block corrosion is one of those sleeping gremlins that awakes with a startle.
Everything is fine, until it isn't...
Pressures, compression, all that and whatever is fine.
Then a flake falls off, and clogs something, and heating issues occur.
Or worse, a pin hole breaks through, and something hydrolocks.
Please don't take it as a "chicken little the sky is falling" statement, but more of a factual statement.
I had to go get a bayboat last night, stuck on the water, 1996 Yamaha 225 2-stroke. was running great. then wasn't.
last time it was in the shop, we did compression (as we always do) all six cylinders between 125-130. Will check it tomorrow or Tuesday, but just basis their description I expect to find a hole in a head or the water jacket into a cylinder.
Entirely different animal; aluminum heads and such, and much higher hours on an outboard from a fishing boat (but I think this one is still less than 500?) than from a sailboat auxiliary diesel; but corrosion knows no limits and particularly if your block zinc has been neglected it's the time of corrosion doing the damage not the water flushing through.
But my prayer for you is 15 more years of successful service from this one!
And just for curiosity sake, I'll try to report back on the dead Yamaha later this week.
yup me too! Gunna enjoy it.
No point in worrying about a problem that doesn't exist yet. My outboard, Miss Nissan size 8 who had performed flawlessly for 8 years, last season out of the blue decided to stop pumping water. And easy fix but the point is any engine, marine or land based is just one failure away from total catastrophe. When one looks at the speeds, forces and temperatures of any internal combustion engine, it's a miracle they run at all. Not to mention 250 thousand miles and counting like my Tundra. Simply amazing.
Bob23
Quote from: Bob23 on February 15, 2016, 04:16:38 AM
No point in worrying about a problem that doesn't exist yet. My outboard, Miss Nissan size 8 who had performed flawlessly for 8 years, last season out of the blue decided to stop pumping water. And easy fix but the point is any engine, marine or land based is just one failure away from total catastrophe. When one looks at the speeds, forces and temperatures of any internal combustion engine, it's a miracle they run at all. Not to mention 250 thousand miles and counting like my Tundra. Simply amazing.
Bob23
I totally agree. If it ain't broke don't fix it. That doesn't mean ignore it but enjoy it!. My last diesel car, a Mercedes 240D, finally decided to retire at 489,000 miles. Who knows how long the little Yanmar will go but it is woefully underused to date and I intend to correct that!
Well Bob23, it's snowing yet again and we still had snow left from Jonas. We might need to wax up those xc skies again! Hope all is well.
We've got about an inch here but it's turning warmer so conditions are not good. I fully expect at least 350,000 miles from my 4.7 liter Tundra. Got about 92,000 to go and he's showing no sign of weakness or slowing down. I am a maintenance freak, bordering on aircraft meticulousness, so that will contribute to it's long life.
Bob23
An auxiliary diesel is a beautiful thing. Keep her maintained and she will purr for a very long time.
Damn all this snow. I need to get some boat work done before I can go sailing. Lots to do, little time to do it. We will see when I get there again.
Hang in there Heave. Weather is soon to break and much warmer temps and sun on the way!
I hear you. Next Monday I think I will finish the VHF install and the water system install.
Are you guys still thinking about doing the Tangier Trip?
You know, I bet if a few other souls wanted to be involved in the crossing we could find space for them aboard and, if they wanted to, they could get a good place to sleep at one of the B&Bs on the island.
It is on the radar and a course is being laid out to make it happen. Like to get to the city docks at slack if possible as the currents, which you know from experience, can be a little tricky while docking. An extra set of hands is always welcome in such situations so sure space can be found. The lady who ended up with a Typhoon, I am sure will want to do this if schedule permits and others i am sure will look to join. The mid week nature of it does eliminate some but what a great time to enjoy the place.
Meanwhile it has started icing here.
I'm placing this pretty high on my list. Not sure I'd be hauling the intrepid Koinonia down there...but I might. Otherwise, I'd need to hitch a ride aboard another craft. I am still planning to row this sometime but maybe a sail to Tangier first might be in order. Do you guys have a concrete date or dates nailed down yet?
Bob23
I threw some dates on the post for the Tangier trip. No one has gotten back with me on them. It is the best timing I can think of because the weather shouldn't be horribly hot and it shouldn't be that busy. Not to mention that it is in the middle of my 21 days off in a row stretch! I think that I am going to do some sailing.
Sorry, don't mean to thread jack this thread.
Hey Bob23, clearly we have done it again with being off topic! With that said, things the time frame was to accommodate Heave's block of time he will be taking several days to cruise, avoiding the Memorial Day weekend (Tangier can get kinda crowded), a few folks (including me) that have conflicts the prior weekend, and generally good sailing weather. The trip should not be planned around my schedule so if the prior weekend is when everyone else can go i certainly get it. Think the mid week time frame is a good one though as we should have plenty of room at the town docks.
Diesel, there i said it so we can say we had that in the discussion! :)
Hey Heave i agree on the timing for good conditions. May is a great month as the water temp has risen and winds good. You should plan to head up the Rivah and we will hit a couple great spots in our neck of the woods.
Diesel motors are cool......:) Think that was the topic?
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=9204.15
We can get back on topic over there!
Diesels Rule....Oh wait, I don't have a diesel. Now I feel left out. Damn it!!!
Thanks for reekling us in , Matt. you know us old guys...minds are always wandering. Now, where were we?
Quote from: Bob23 on February 15, 2016, 04:16:38 AM
No point in worrying about a problem that doesn't exist yet. My outboard, Miss Nissan size 8 who had performed flawlessly for 8 years, last season out of the blue decided to stop pumping water. And easy fix but the point is any engine, marine or land based is just one failure away from total catastrophe. When one looks at the speeds, forces and temperatures of any internal combustion engine, it's a miracle they run at all. Not to mention 250 thousand miles and counting like my Tundra. Simply amazing.
Bob23
I've just got to ask that lingering question! Bob, did you change that impeller annually as per factory manual? Or strectch to bi-annually or tri-annually? Or once every 8 years as indicated by lack of water flow???
I had a customer call this evening, who couldn't remember that we changed his (Johnson 115) Impeller last month, and ran it right it front of him. He kicked it over getting ready for a weekend trip (yes, it's 70 degrees in New Orleans area today), and it wasn't "peeing" enough to satisfy him. After chatting a bit, and before heading over, I calmly told him he probably had a plugged up pee tube; within 10 minutes he called back and confirmed same.
Having fixed that, now he can go catch the speckled trout ... limit is 25 per person per day!
And the easiest, (Patent Pending) way I tell folks to keep track of that? Dump a case of beer in the ice chest. For each fish you catch, drink a beer. When you're out of beer, go home after catching the next fish...
Well....I had actually changed it only the year before. I had the motor for 8 years before I changed it...it never missed a beat. But then I began to feel guilty- I mean, how much mileage can you get out of one impeller? So the new one went. But actually it had a thermostat issue that I got fixed at the dealer at the same time. Now she runs great but has been replaced by my Sailpro named Su. She's a small girl, size 6.
I like your advanced usage of math using the beer! Simply genius!
Having fixed that, now he can go catch the speckled trout ... limit is 25 per person per day!
And the easiest, (Patent Pending) way I tell folks to keep track of that? Dump a case of beer in the ice chest. For each fish you catch, drink a beer. When you're out of beer, go home after catching the next fish...
[/quote]
Might be best to take that off topic statement to another forum or start a new topic labeled as such and I'll just stay away. Gets the rest of we Gulf States speck fishermen upset. Louisiana creel and length limits are unrealistic for reasonable conservation due to the fact that it takes 14" for 100% of females to be at egg laying prime and they lay three times as many eggs as the 43% that are egg layers at 12". That wouldn't bother me as much except that your fishing waters are not just due south of your state, but just a few miles due south of mine.
Most of us hope they take your advise, drink a case of beer and fall off the boat......that would help the natural selection process.
Diesel......remember?
Yeah, diesel. Somewhere back in my cranium, I seem to remember someone making or attempting to make a diesel outboard. A few years ago at the Maine Boatbuilders Show in Portland Maine (ayuh), I was talking to a local builder who was discussing it. I'm sure there would be a limited market but just to have that cool sound. Reminds me of all my air cooled VW's that I used to have. Todays engines are so boringly quiet.
Bob23
Hey Bob, try checking this site out. Yanmar is taking the global distribution for them.
http://www.neander-shark.com/en/motoren/neander-outboarder/
Too bad about the Yanmar diesel market since the new EPA regs just a few years ago. Yanmar should have talked to the folks at VW for ideas on how to "comply"!
I wish battery development was further along as otherwise electric propulsion has some distinct advantages. At this stage, electric is only practical for day sailors with short motoring distances. Small outboards are far more practical for small boats with longer motoring requirements and the fuel consumption isn't significant. Diesel motors have been the choice for larger vessels for a number of good reasons, but have been widely disregarded by large production companies for small boats because of cost.
It can't be said that gas outboard or diesel inboard is superior as it depends on the application. Either of the two are reliable when properly cared for. Diesels will give you far more hours of service, but are more expensive to replace. Diesel motors require less service because of the lack an ignition system and are enclosed and out of the weather. Outboards can be dismounted for service which makes access easier.
The diesel in my 23 pilot house is the right choice. I am very happy that it is a two cylinder Yanmar because of less vibration and reliability. The engine weight being in the bilge as opposed to hanging on the transom is a nice boost to performance, less hobby horsing and stiffer. She is a very nice boat to sail and to motor. With my 5 gallon portable backup fuel container I can motor for about 36 hours straight at 2400 rpm.
Ron
NoMas:
So, I wasn't crazy! There are diesel outboards...make perfect sense. That actually looks like a very advanced design.
I entered a CP twenty three that had a diesel inboard ... the whole inside of that hull stunk like fuel oil ... the wife said, "Your not bring that home."
Diesel outboards would be okay, but heavy I'm guessing and vibrations galore?
If I was to buy another O/B I'd find a 5 hp zero time, NOS Briggs and Straton, air cooled [lawn mower engine] About $500 bucks, UPS'able.
How dependable is your lawn mower? ... mine starts first time every time.
skip.
It seems that Neander conquered the vibration problem with 2 counter rotating crankshafts. A very innovative design.
Quote from: Bob23 on February 23, 2016, 06:39:39 PM
It seems that Neander conquered the vibration problem with 2 counter rotating crankshafts. A very innovative design.
...requiring 175 kg of mass (385 pounds), more than 100 pounds heavier than a comparable 50 hp gas o/b.
talk about creating a stern squat... hopefully there are lighter models.
"I entered a CP twenty three that had a diesel inboard ... the whole inside of that hull stunk like fuel oil ... the wife said, "Your not bring that home.""
The cramped quarters of a diesel on a 23 means you either use absorbent pads when doing engine work and/or be fastidious in cleanup. Once a year, you air it out and are good to go till next season. Certainly less of a long term nuisance than the smell of 2 cycle! 4 cycle outboards rule there. Many good reasons for both outboards and diesels. Neither is better depending upon your intent. I like my diesel and actively sought one. On the 23's the resale value is significant as the law of supply and demand sets in with diesels. The one cylinder 10gm is a work horse and sips fuel. Yes it thumps more, and has less moving parts. Three cylinders are even more balanced than two, four even more, at some point you have to decide what you are seeking. I wanted simplicity, economy, small size and weight. There are always trade offs, only understanding what you seek leads you to what is best for your purpose. I recommend that one should be happy with what they have! The grass aways seems greener on the other side of the dock.
As far as a lawnmower engine goes...if my lawnmower stops i am done cutting grass. If my outboard stops it will more than likely be when i needed it and cannot simply pull over and call AAA.
A diesel outboard such as Neander makes are not for our little 23's. Truly too powerful and heavy. An ingenious design however, and should fill a nice workboat market.
There are reasons that there are hundreds of CP23's with OB's and probably less than 50 with diesels. The 23D was/is a pricey boat. There may be arguments as to the enhanced sea handling with a diesel with more weight below waterline, the prop staying in the water, longer range, better charging, safer fuel, motor out of the weather. But there is also the advantage of price, re-powering with an OB, the ability to steer with the motor, and selection. Gotta know what you seek.
With that said....diesels rule!
Quote from: moonlight on February 14, 2016, 09:57:14 PM
Block corrosion is one of those sleeping gremlins that awakes with a startle...
...I had to go get a bayboat last night, stuck on the water, 1996 Yamaha 225 2-stroke. was running great. then wasn't.
last time it was in the shop, we did compression (as we always do) all six cylinders between 125-130. Will check it tomorrow or Tuesday, but just basis their description I expect to find a hole in a head or the water jacket into a cylinder.
Entirely different animal; aluminum heads and such, and much higher hours on an outboard from a fishing boat (but I think this one is still less than 500?) than from a sailboat auxiliary diesel; but corrosion knows no limits and particularly if your block zinc has been neglected it's the time of corrosion doing the damage not the water flushing through.
And just for curiosity sake, I'll try to report back on the dead Yamaha later this week.
Had no idea I'd stir such a pot with creel limit math equations, but moving on from there have an update on that sick Yamaha that nobody was really worried about or caring about... but it does lead us to understand our value and longevity as sailors and how the darwinian forces will equal out.
Compression was fine (did the whole test from the back of the motor, never moving around the port side). Had changed gear oil prior just because it was due. Looking at good compression and new plugs, noticed on-engine fuel filter 1/2 full of air. Couldn't get the bulb to squeeze up at all. Fuel gauge read 1/4. Oh, and 2-stroke oil dripping all over out of the carbs (it's oil injected at almost that point).
On a whim, hooked her up and stopped at the gas station on the way to the ramp. Got a nice receipt for 59.7 gallons of premium introduced into an advertised 60 gallon tank. Amazingly, the bulb worked fine now. So did the engine, ran like a scalded cat, except the whole thing was a bit squirrelly as they had the jackplate too high. Lowered it for more bite, and she dug and ran.
Returned it to the customer's home and strolled back to the ramp and the truck ...
It can't be said that gas outboard or diesel inboard is superior as it depends on the application
The nail has been hit on the head.:) It is good to hear perspectives from folks who have varied needs and applications but one size does not fit all.
I wish battery development was further along as otherwise electric propulsion has some distinct advantages.
Me too. In fact with my current cruising profile it would work fine for me. I need about 6-8 total miles of cruising range. I'm on a relatively small lake so heavy seas or very high head winds would be very rare. I have dockside power and AC already on the boat for recharge. What would be perfect would be batteries that would take the place of ballast but in the same place and an inboard electric drive system. I would not want an electric outboard because it would not give the advantage of less stern weight and better trim, but a silent running electric inboard would be great. The barrier right now of course is cost.
Is it possible to adapt an inboard drive to electric coupled directly to the drive shaft? I'm guessing that it would require a very different prop because of the motor speed. The nice thing is our displacement hull boats can carry the extra weight of batteries without much penalty. Placed appropriately the batteries could replace some of the ballast. The motor would also constitute ballast so you would have a properly ballasted boat with the weight located low and amidships just where it should be. I'd be surprised if no one has researched using batteries as ballast replacement for electric drive systems. Now I am sure an electric motor doesn't have to be expensive and lasts forever with no maintenance. So the question here may be one of the cost of batteries compared to an internal combustion engine. The only problem remains the availability of recharging these batteries when needed. So Brackish, maybe your solution isn't so elusive. A great project would be to nab one of those old neglected 16 footers and use it for a prototype electric inboard with batteries in the keel for ballast. The Com-Pac shoal keels seem to lend themselves to that purpose. You may be able to fit 4 in the keel of a 16. Has anyone examined the new electric launch for battery placement, but then it wouldn't be ballast oriented like a sail boat.
Electric propulsion is now available but is limited by battery development. As battery advances are made, electric propulsion will be suitable for a wider array of applications, and therefore should become cheap enough to compete with fossil fuel.
I like wind and electric for boats - they are the two cleanest, most reliable and renewable energy sources given to us by Mother Nature. Not to mention the quietest. Oh sorry I forgot about oars, but they aren't quiet when used to get home because the motor wouldn't start.
Ron
batteries as ballast is kind of like a McGregor 25 - it's neither a speedboat, nor a sailboat.
Ballast already has an important job; leave it alone.
The batteries have an important job too, and to optimize them, don't weigh much, so they don't do the ballast job well.
Example - a customer whom we've helped fit electric propulsion.
1973 Columbia 45. A tank that floats, really.
15KW of LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate cells) fits in a 2'x2'x1' box; 4 cubic feet, and weighs 312#.
15KW in any version of lead battery would be over 2,000#, so there's ballast.
But the Pb (lead) batteries have a cycle life of 300-500 cycles, only 50% depth of discharge (DOD) on the best day, and a C rating of about 5 (which is how fast it can discharge or recharge, limited to about 20% in the best case of the Amp-hours (Ah) of the battery).
LiFePO4 has been run over 3,000 cycles (nominal 6x the life) to 80% DOD (60% or more usable capacity) with a C rating of 1 or even 0.5 (meaning a 100Ah cell can deliver 100~200 Ah, continuous (even if only for 30 min), and recharge just as fast).
So LiFePO4 wins hands down. Sure, it's 3x the cost. But 6x the life, so now it's 1/2 price compared to Pb (life-cycle). And 60% greater capacity, even more cost savings. And recharges relatively instantaneously, instead of over night or over the weekend...
But it doesn't weigh enough to be suitable ballast...
Quote from: moonlight on February 26, 2016, 09:59:10 AM
batteries as ballast is kind of like a McGregor 25 - it's neither a speedboat, nor a sailboat.
Ballast already has an important job; leave it alone.
The batteries have an important job too, and to optimize them, don't weigh much, so they don't do the ballast job well.
With all due respect, that is a pretty poor analogy. A 23 has 1340 lbs. of ballast. Concrete and lead mix I believe, poured into the keel box. So 1340 minus weight of the required batteries that are located in the same keel box, locked in place on top for proper replacement and maintenance, equals the new amount of poured ballast. No difference in the total weight or weight distribution, so no difference in the sailing performance of the boat. If the batteries are less dense, you use more lead, less concrete in the ballast and lower the batteries to keep the center of mass the same as it is now.
You can put 312# on a Columbia 45 anywhere and not notice much difference, but add any weight to the 23 and you better be careful where it is or she don't do right.
I'm not talking about starting with an existing 23, leaving the current ballast intact and just adding batteries. I'm talking about new production or removing ballast from an existing boat and starting over.
Com-Pac currently offers an electric drive in one of its models, and I'm sure they would adapt it to the 23 if you requested it. Last I checked I think it was an $18,000 adder to the base boat. At that price I can live with my $1500 Sail Pro that has been absolutely trouble free from day one.
Well it appears we should declare this thread officially diesel engine vs outboard motor vs electric drive on the 23! Good news is that all three can be accomplished and all three are simply auxiliary as we have SAILboats! Our first boat a CP16, (well i did rig up a canoe earlier with an old sail from a friends junked sunfish and some lee boards) and we sailed that 16 for three seasons before we got a used long shaft 4.5 Johnson. Thought i had died and gone to heaven! Wife was happier too. :)
It will be fun to watch the emergence of electric drives, but mostly the batteries. The weak link.
Diesel rocks my boat!
What is really true is what I tell my power boating friends.
A sailboat without an engine is still a sailboat; A power boat without an engine is a barge!
:)
I think moonlight has some bad information. I installed a modified Torqeedo Cruise 4.0R in my Horizon Cat powered by four 214AH batteries for slightly over 10KWH and at only 500#. Three of the batteries slid in where the engine normally would and the fourth was dropped into the keel forward of the centerboard under the sole at Gerry's suggestion (adding to the ballast with a low CG). She will cruise at 4.5 knots for 8 hours if needed. Don't know what the inside of the keel or any engine space looks like on the 23 but I was originally going to put all four batteries in the engine space but missed by 1/2". The battery is an Odyssey 1800-FT and measures 5" wide, 23" deep and 12" high. If as you indicate you only have limited requirements to get in and out, the Torqeedo 1003 outboard with selfcontained battery is said to power a boat of your displacement (if you don't have to fight strong tide or winds). It is rated as 3HP equivalent and weighs only 30# complete with battery. The equivalent power of the Cruise 4.0R is 9 HP but the all in price is about double a 9.9 HP gasoline outboard. The 1003 is actually less (pricewise and power).
If you want to see the battery installation, go to http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6926.0
Having owned all sorts of boats and power plants over the years, electric is by far the most elegant!
Electric is indeed elegant, quiet and outside of batteries and replacements, less to replace and repair than internal combustion. Right now the cruising ability of the diesel is hard to match. That is important for us. If we were not in a location that tides, currents and wave action where the HP is needed, the lower thrust motors could work, but still not for long blocks in coastal cruising. I still love the electric concept and am sure the technology will continue to improve.
Kuddos for making the jump cdfian! Keep us posted here.