I replace the long pin on my mast this week. The new version is solid and much stronger than the hollow one with the pin and ball inside. I sail with the pin in place and use the downhaul spinlock for my lazy jacks. I sailed this weekend in 15 mph wind and the pin is just fine. Much stronger then the old one. Worth the $20.00 (I guess)
With pin in, and boom in a "fixed" position, how do you adjust tension in the bottom 1/3 of mainsail luff to achieve proper sail shape for a given wind condition without a working downhaul?
I understand that most of the camber built into a typical mainsail is located approximately 1/3 of the way up the luff from the tack and 1/3 of the way along the foot from the tack. In order to change sail shape on our four sided sails we need to be able to adjust the entire luff tension with throat halyard and downhaul, the foot tension with clew outhaul, and upper sail curvature under the gaff with peak halyard.
Way to technical for me since I only race once a year! Who cares!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: capt_nemo on April 21, 2011, 09:00:57 PM
With pin in, and boom in a "fixed" position, how do you adjust tension in the bottom 1/3 of mainsail luff to achieve proper sail shape for a given wind condition without a working downhaul?
You don't, and since the pinned position is an inch or two above the "natural" height of the boom, you have it set for light air and locked. I had mine in for the Sun Cat Nationals.
You're not supposed to sail with the long pin in place. It is to hold the booms and sail off the deck when at rest or under power, and to hold the gaff boom down when folding the mast to prevent damage to the mast extrusion around the hinge. Still, I sail with the long pin in place a lot, including in pretty strong winds. The sail is a bit more full than it should be, but at least the boom stays up and out of my way! ;)
It is kind of nice to have the boom pinned when reefing, and once the sail is reefed, luff tension can be adjusted with the throat halyard.
If you're not supposed to sail with the long pin in place, why did they make it so darn handy? I wish I could move the whole hinge assembly down an inch, so that the pinned shape could be right in higher winds.
Interesting tactics Tom. Might save me sending the wife to the bow to hold up the boom while I hoist the sails! I did try leaving the pin in for mast raising and then trying to extract it to regain downhaul capabilities, but it was way too tricky. I'm still intrigued by the notion that a boom kicker might be able to do the same job? So far nobody has said they have done it on a Suncat but it sounds intriguing!
Mine is self-extracting sometimes. A little halyard stretch will ease the tension on it, then a little heeling will make it slip right out.
now that I think about it, since I started using the boom vang at all times, it keeps enough tention on the pin to keep it in place.. Just snug most of the time. tight on windy days.
I finally had both time and wind today to take my new (to me) Suncat out for a test drive. Having read this thread I tried sailing first with the pin in and then with it out. In the light to moderate breeze there seemed to be little difference in performance. Sailing with the pin in does seem to be the easier route and I was left wondering why the block for the throat was set so low. If this were 3 inches higher it would probably be possible to adjust the luff tension using the throat halyard. Am I thinking too much like a sloop sailor?
Also, Is the new improved long pin only available from Hutchins, or is it a standard pin available at west marine?
Thanks
Tim
Cat's Meow
Tim, the std procedure is to fully raise the throat halyard and adjust luff tension with the downhaul.
Or just leave your long pin in place and accept the fact that the luff will be a bit loose. That's generally what I do. :D
I don't know if you can get the pin from West, but it's just a pin. Most any pin will do. If you find a bigger one that won't fit, make the holes bigger. They are not structurally significant.
Hi,
I replaced my "pin" with a standard stainless steel bolt (the proper length) and and self-locking stainless steel nut. I sail with the pin in place and It seems to be just fine for me. (Im a first year suncat owner and Im learning as I go)(-:
Has anyone tried moving the throat halyard block further up the mast? This would allow the pin to be left in and the luff to be tensioned using the throat halyard.
Tim
Couldn't resist responding to this thread which seems to have a life of its own.
Thanks Tim22. I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to suggest this most obvious solution to help tighten the luff with the long pin in! With a drill and perhaps a rivet tool it is probably a 15 minute job or less. (Longer if you are compelled to tap the new holes for threaded fasteners.) You could even leave the halyard rove through the block in process.
I, on the other hand, much prefer to leave the long pin out (and bungeed securely against mast) when hoisting the Mainsail and use both throat halyard and downhaul to achieve proper (adjustable) luff tension.
Frankly, I just don't understand why there is such a burning desire to leave that darn long pin in place while sailing. If you are experiencing difficulty hoisting the gooseneck up to its normal working position with throat halyard alone (downhaul loose) look for problems elsewhere. And, I don't believe the boom needs to be pinned in place to achieve proper sail shape for sailing in light air.
capt_nemo
I don't really have a burning desire to leave the pin in. I'm just thinking that I could use the down hall blocks, clutch etc. for something more useful things like (not in order of importance) a topping lift, lazy jacks or gaff downhall. I haven't really decided which of these (if any), I want or need, but the downhall just seems like a waste of useful hardware!!
Tim
Tim, that is EXACTLY why I leave the pin in. I use the block and cleat for my lazy jacks/topping lift. Luff tention is very ajustible using the main haylard. I also use a boom vang. The only other line I added was for the &(*%$$$ gaft downhaul. I ran a small line down the mast and over to the starboard hand rail and back to small existing cleat on the cabin top that I don't use for anything. That is one line I will never understand why Compac didn't install. That and lazy jacks are must have equipment on a Suncat as far as I'm concerned. I singlehand everything from the cockpit. Now...about that anchore..............:):)
The one real advantage (to me at least) is that leaving the long pin in with the boom above it will give you a few inches more head room in the cockpit and companionway. Probably a good idea for those who do not have to fold down the mast everyday.
My first sail with the boomkicker I recently installed was last weekend in light air. I love the thing so far. I can't see any use for the long pin any more nor can I see any use for the topping lift I had installed. After raising the mast I lift the boom and insert the stop pin in the boomkicker track. From the cockpit I tension the downhaul which lifts the aft end of the boom off the gallows. When raising the sail, there is no bang/clunk/thunk between the boom and gallows even if off the wind. Lowering the sail is simply the reverse. The boomkicker holds the boom above the hinge.
Dennis
I did some more poking around this weekend. We had one day of light winds and a second day of moderate winds with gusts to about 22Knts. This was perfect for studying the "Long Pin Dilemma"! What I learned was:
1. I don't like going to the mast to pull or replace the pin when it's blowing. For that matter I don't like it even when it isn't.
2. Reefing without some sort of topping lift is a pain. I have installed single line reefing which works well but having the boom banging around in the gallows is a bit unnerving
3. Lowering the sail in moderate winds is problematic with the gaff swinging about and sticking at some points
4. Sail shape matters. Being able to flatten the sail or unflatten using outhauls, leech lines, down hauls, or halyards makes a significant difference to performance
So here's my plan...
1 To solve the "long pin dilemma" and partially address the sail shape issue I am considering raising the top throat halyard block further up the mast. This will allow the pin to remain in place and the luff to be tensioned using the throat halyard. To test my theory I am planning to add a block to the lower mast bail. I am a bit concerned that this might over stress the bail so would be grateful of any thoughts on this. If the test is successful I will move the existing throat halyard block further up the mast.
2. To address the sail lowering (3) I will add lazy jacks with a single line on each side. These will be individually adjustable on the boom and will also be jointly adjustable using the re rigged down haul hardware with the addition of two cheek blocks near the top of the mast. The boom adjustment will be used to adjust sail trim while the joint adjustment can be used to quickly tension for use as lazy jacks.
3. I will add a gaff down haul rigged to starboard so it will be easily accessible when lowering the sail
Thanks for listening - any comments on the viability, sensibility or usability or anything else would be most appreciated. I am planning on doing this next weekend so still have time for sober second thought!
Tim
Hi Tim,
When you try these "fixes", can you try to post some pictures..
Thanks in advance
ken
Tim22,
Wholeheartedly agree on lesson learned number 4 - Sail shape matters indeed. That is why I DON'T SAIL WITH THE LONG PIN IN! Don't understand why anyone would want to sail with it in and no downhaul! What SIGNIFICANT advantage is there to sailing with pin in?
Adding block to lower mast bail for test of theory is both practical and sound. If mast bail is fastened with bolt through mast don't worry about overstressing it.
Adding gaff downhaul, led to cockpit starboard, was first mod I made to my Sun Cat - the only thing that tames a pesky hesitant gaff, no matter how slick the sail track.
Added 3/16" Dacron Topping Lift from boom end up thru small block on upper mast bail down to turning block at base of mast and to cockpit portside. Love it!
Think long and hard about when and how long you would need/use Lazy Jacks while sailing before adding any extra lines or hardware to mast or boom. There are simple, effective, low cost DIY Lazy Jack systems with absolutely NO HARDWARE! I've been using mine for two seasons and love 'em.
And for all those lines led aft to the cockpit port or starboard, removable and changeable line control boards as shown below.
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/CPYOA/100_1517.jpg)
Capt_Nemo,
My main objection to the long pin is that I want out in when I'm sailing and in when I'm raising, lowering, or reefing the sail which means a trip to the mast each time. When single handing this is something I would prefer to avoid and leaving the pin in seems the best way to accomplish this. My problem is that I don't want to sacrifice sail shape as a result of leaving the pin in - hence the plan to raise the throat halyard block.
My lazy Jacks/topping lift pan is a variation of what I believe is Tom Ray's system. There are two lines (one each side of the boom) coming from the mast head to the boom (at the aft sailcover cutout locaton). The lines will go through cheak blocks on either side of the boom and fasten in a jam cleat on the boom. By tightening both lines these will hold the boom above the gallows and act as lazy jacks. By tightening one line it will act as a topping lift allowing the sail to be shaped on one tack. Loosening one side and tightening the other will provide sail shape on the other tack. Where I differ from Tom's system is that at the masthead I intend to join both lines together into single line which will run through the downhaul block at the foot of the mast, downhaul deck block, to the downhaul clutch. This will allow both jacklines to be raised or lowered together when necessary.
I am impressed with your contol board. This may become my next project as my aversion to drilling holes in the deck is second only to my aversion to dealing with the long pin!!
Tim22
Tim22,
Thanks for the info.
Reason I don't understand all the fuss is because I don't even think about the long pin (bungeed to mast below hinge) when I'm raising, lowering or reefing sail. If you are experiencing a problem performing these tasks with long pin OUT then something else is not rigged or working correctly. And, I single hand most of the time and do not leave the cockpit.
capt_nemo
On this, as on many other issues, I'll have to side with captn_nemo. The "long pin" is an absoloute gem and a designer stroke of genius but for only one purpose: being able to hold all the lines tucked against the mast when the mast is down. Most particularly, it makes for both portions of the gaff halyard (even the aft portion leading to the middle of the gaff) to "disappear" against the mast. It has no designed role for shaping the sail. In fact, as captn_nemo has insisted, if used while sailing it interferes with the downhaul, a much needed adjustment to shape a sail with a floating tack. If you need the pin to keep the boom from touching the gallows then either the main halyard is not up all the way or the mainsail (or at least its leech) has stretched and it's time for a new sail.
J.
Quote from: capt_nemo on June 21, 2011, 10:05:41 PM
Frankly, I just don't understand why there is such a burning desire to leave that darn long pin in place while sailing.
I put it in immediately upon launch so I can have the Bimini up for the wife and dogs. I leave it in while sailing because the mast is alllllll the way up there and I'm alllllll the way back here in the cockpit and can't be bothered.
Sincerely,
Jib Trimmer ;)
Joseph & Capt_Nemo
My question is a theoretical one. Presuming that the same tension can be achieved using either method, is there an advantage to adjusting luff tension using a floating gooseneck with a halyard & downhaul as opposed to a fixed gooseneck and halyard alone. This would seem to be the crux of the issue and I have been working under the presumption that tension is tension whether applied from one end of the sail or both ends.
How say you?
Tim 22
Tim22,
It was indeed gratifying, at long last, to read Joseph's "kindred spirit" comments supporting my understanding of the purpose and use of the controversial long pin.
If, in fact, your "presumption" is correct, I see no particular advantage to adjusting luff tension using a floating gooseneck with halyard and downhaul as opposed to fixed gooseneck and halyard. With floating gooseneck we raise and "fix" the throat (head) then tension the luff at the tack with the 2 part downhaul, and with fixed gooseneck you have "fixed" the tack and tension the luff with the 2 part halyard. Tensioning lines in both cases are led back to the cockpit through turning blocks to clutches or cleats on the cabintop.
The problem I have with making the alteration in running rigging that you propose is a matter of principle. I have learned through experience, sometimes the hard way, over the course of many years that, IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!
However, if you have a strong compelling reason to alter the running rigging, then I say go for it and let us all know how it works out!
capt_nemo
Quote from: Tim22 on June 30, 2011, 09:36:09 AM
Joseph & Capt_Nemo
My question is a theoretical one. Presuming that the same tension can be achieved using either method, is there an advantage to adjusting luff tension using a floating gooseneck with a halyard & downhaul as opposed to a fixed gooseneck and halyard alone. This would seem to be the crux of the issue and I have been working under the presumption that tension is tension whether applied from one end of the sail or both ends.
How say you?
Tim 22
Don is right that there is no significant difference in terms of the sail shape.
Two differences that occur to me:
If you relocate the throat halyard a bit higher, you'll have to put more holes in your mast, and they will be pretty near to existing holes.
The whole rig will be a bit higher up in the air, which is good in light air, not so good in heavy air. How much higher depends on how close you are willing to drill a new set of holes to the old ones.
The natural position of the boom is near where the long pin holds it, but it wants to be a bit further down in most conditions. Not enough further to make me bother removing my long pin, though... ;)
This weekend I made several changes to My Sun Cat.
First, I temporarily replaced the throat halyard block with a block attached to the lower mast bail. This was a test to see if a higher location would allow the sail to be properly tensioned while sailing with the long pin left in. The results were a bit mixed. I could get slightly more tension but not as much as I could get using the down haul with the pin out. The problem seems to be the friction in the sail track as I just didn't have enough strength to get the same tension as I could achieve with the down haul. Were this test a success I intended to move the throat halyard fitting higher on the mast, but I am not sure that the results justify this change.
The second change was to add lazy jacks/topping lift as per Tom Ray's design but modified to be adjustable from the cockpit port side as well as on the boom. This was detailed in my previous post. These worked exceptionally well. I have yet to fully evaluate the usefulness of the dual control to the cockpit and will do some more testing before deciding whether to keep this aspect of the mod, but the lazy jacks/topping lift is definitely a keeper.
The third modification was the addition of a gaff downhaul. I added a block at the base of the mast and ran the line through the port side of the starboard deck organizer. Don't know how I lived without this!!
Fourth mod was to add single line jiffy reefing.
Tim22
Yes, tension is tension... but given the friction in the rigging an the elasticity of ropes, you may want to apply it as directly and as close as possible to the zone that needs to be stretched. A downhaul in addition of being helped by the effect of gravity in the entire luff, is shorter and has less sheaves an blocks than a halyard. Stretching the luff of a full sail using the halyard can be very difficult without luffing the sail and stalling the boat, but this may still be possible with a downhaul. This is also the reason why when Bermuda racing sloops started to be produced with fixed goose necks (and hence without a downhaul) Briggs Cunningham invented, well yes, "the cunningham".
Coming back to the main reason for the long pin (which I strongly suspect to be a Hutchins invention), in addition of keeping all lines against the mast it ensures that the neck of the gaff has been brought below the level of the mast hinge when the mast is about to be folded down. As such it a safety reminder, as it is not possible to put the pin in place unless the gaff's neck and its halyard's shackle have already been pushed down below the level of the hinge.
In my boat the head of the pin has an opening just large enough to catch on the upper edge of the casing of the hinge, inside which it hangs loose while sailing.
J.
The long pin is a Hutchins invention. I don't know of anything else quite like it. The long pin in back and safety pin in front are really what distinguish a Mastendr hinge from just a plain old hinge, as far as I can tell. I have not read their patent.
The boat needs it mostly to hold up the throat end of the main boom, keeping it off the deck so you can open the forward hatch and have the bimini top up when not under sail. Keeping the gaff boom fitting out of the hinge is the other purpose for it.
As for using it under sail, what they really need to do is just cut the mast section a little bit lower when installing the hinge. There would still be plenty of room to get everything below the hinge for mast folding, but the pinned position of the boom would be a bit too low instead of a bit too high, assuming nothing else was changed. That would mean the throat halyard could be used to set luff tension, and the downhaul dispensed with.
If I ever break my mast, I'll order a new one uncut and a hinge and put it in the "right" place myself. ;)
I use my throat halyard, downhaul, and long pin just the way they are, the way they were designed and meant to be used, without any problems, and love 'em!
capt_nemo
I'll add my 2 cents concerning the long pin, at least how it works on my Horizon.
If the mast is staying up with the boat tied off at a dock, I tend to leave the long pin in with the boom's gooseneck held permanently above the pin. I do this only to increase the headroom under the boom.
Sailing off of the trailer, I will usually lift the boom, gaf and sail above the pin holes and pin it there immediately after I raise the mast. Main reason is that there is a lot less weight to lift when I raise the sail a few minutes later. The Horizon's boom, sail and gaf are substantially heavier than the Sun cats. Better to get this set of slides above the hinge. In either case I obviously have to pull the pin to lower the boom and gaf before I lower the mast.
Here's one major difference in the 2 boats - with the throat halyard pulled as high up as possible, the boom's gooseneck is a few inches higher than the pin, so I can use the downhaul to tension the sails luff. It winds up an inch or two above the pin.
Does anyone have a picture of the long pin in and out of the connecting pieces....everyone has talked about it...but either i have it and don't know it...or just don't have it...
I have a 2001 SunCat
Thanks
Tom tmolik@earthlink.net
tmolik,
If you don't see a removable "Long Pin" going through two holes, one at the top of each aft side of the lower hinge assembly, or a "Long Pin" nearby hanging loose from the side of the mast on a short lanyard, THEN YOU DON'T HAVE ONE!
That said, considering the designed purpose of the "Long Pin", you need to replace it with a stainless rod (or bolt) of suitable length to pass through the two opposing holes mentioned above. One end should be larger to keep it from moving completely through and the other end should stick out of the other hole enough so that it is not likely to work its way out.
If you are not inclined to find a suitable replacement yourself, call the factory and have them send you one.
capt_nemo
Capt...thanks for the info...
I went to ComPac's office and purchased the Long Pin....the owners are great people...
Tom
Odduck, glad the boomkicker has worked well for you too. :) I put one on Suncat(Cattitude) and when we moved to Horizon Cat(Kailani), had one installed on it. As far as we are concerned they are the best thing since sliced bread. In addition to keeping the boom supported when raising and lowering sail(with no extra lines to adjust ala lazy jacks) the boomkicker also allows the bimini to be deployed with the sail lowered. It also stabilizes the boom under "ghosting" conditions to reduce slatting as well as adding a little fullness to the sail. As the wind pipes up the fullness goes away because the wind pressure overpowers the "springiness" of the boomkicker as the sheets tighten. Not cheap, but worth it to us(the Admiral & I) in terms of safety and convenience especially if singlehanding or when we have quests aboard. ;D By the way Tom Ray has a great set of pix on installing a boomkicker on a Suncat on his Tropical Boating website. Re the long pin, Captain Nemo is right on. The system is very well designed and works well as is. By the by, many fixed gooseneck boats have a winch to adjust the luff tension for the reasons discussed earlier. Kailani has two and we basically pre-tension the luff downhaul and work against that using the winch if more tension is(rarely)needed. We also have a Mack Pack with built in lazy jacks. With the Boomkicker supporting the boom they never need to be adjusted since they can be left loose enough that the sail and gaff are contained while not affecting the set of the sail.