Hello again i have a quick question my gf is pretty scared to even set foot on this boat due to the fact that shes a 16 foot shes afriad its going to capsize very easly, is this a hard boat to capsize or any advice on the topic? If it does capsize it looks very hard to upright since it has such a short keel you dont have alot of leverage to push down on
i ve had over 450lbs on the gunwale (me and my buddy) and the rub rail barely got wet. they have a lot of ballast, i think they are self righting
The 16 would be very difficult to capsize.
Its hull shape and weight distribution is a lot like a lifeboat design and in my opinion, it is one of the safest small boats anywhere
In heavy wind it will heel, but when that happens, the sail spills its air and the boat won't go over any farther.
As ssullivan said, the 16 is ballasted and very stable.
About the only way I can think of to turn her over in the water would be to get hit with a very large wave on the beam.
The only thing I have been concerned about is that a wake from a cruise ship or other large vessel passing too closely could break on deck and fill the cockpit with water.
If the companionway was open when that happened the boat could fill with water and sink, or depending on the amount of floatation, cause it to float very low in the water.
My advice: Stay away from larger vessels and, when in doubt, close the companionway and secure the hatch.
Other than that, just enjoy.
awsome alright ill let her know we may be going on it later today its going to be in the upper 70's with about 10-12kts of wind so a pretty calm nice sailing day!! Shes just used to watching videos of 14' dingys with a small centerboard flipping right over like its nothing!
Matt,
Tell her to grow a pair :) Seriously, it would take an act of god, or a really big wave (storm like situation) to knock these boats over.
It may feel a little tippy, but it will only go so far before stabilizing. After a sail or two your GF will relax, I hope.
Because the CP16 is about as stable as any in that size and nothing in this size range is going to be any better. It's all about getting accustomed to it.
Also if your sails are worn out it will heel more while underway. But it still is more stable than most if not all boats this size.
I have sailed the 16 sitting to leeward (I'm about 200lbs) in 15mph winds with full sails and genoa. A few times I got some water over the coaming (fun!) but it drains out quickly.
Never did I fear of it flipping over. My brother bought this boat, was a complete novice and was a little skeered the first time out. Once he got 30 minutes of time in, he realized it was very safe and forgiving.
Maybe a little liquid encouragement for her is in order (kidding, keep the booze at home).
Quote from: Salty19 on January 03, 2011, 07:44:38 PM
Also if your sails are worn out it will heel more while underway.
Curious. If old worn sails cannot hold the wind as well I would expect just the opposite. Can you explain?
Ok, here it goes. Please folks, don't make too much fun of this reply.
Think of your main and headsail as a bra. But using the control lines (halyard, outhaul, Cunningham, etc), you can shape your sails. Depending on wind speed and/or direction, you need to alter the shape of the sail. Downwind/reach - your sails need to be like a "C" cup. As you get closer to a close haul, you go from a "B" to an "A". Old worn out sails just can't be put in a proper "A" cup anymore. I hope this helps.
Oh, yeah! That helps alot! Now we all have a visual image in our heads...best way to learn. I'll never look at my sails the same way! What's next: Sails by Victorias Secrets? And what about reefing. If you reef too early, do they, ah, pop out? And what about spinnakers...is there a Dolly Parton Sail loft? Or Mae West? I'll stop now because I fear I could go on and on...
Bob23
( Actually, Caboose, that really does help alot! Thanks! If you've read any of my earlier posts, I've likened my CP 23 to Ingrid Bergman who is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful actresses ever. But now I have this picture of my mainsail drapped across her...it's not a bad picture at all!) I'm really gonna stop now.
Hah! Funny stuff Bob...
Quote from: Caboose on January 04, 2011, 05:59:56 PM
Old worn out sails just can't be put in a proper "A" cup anymore.
I know my newbie is showing but this still does not quite make sense to me, unless...
Do you mean that since a worn out sail can no longer hold the "A" shape it will no longer work as close to the wind as it should thereby forcing a point of sail more like a reach which I am guessing will heel more easily than close hauled?
....could we have some pictures for this "A", "B" "C" concept .... maybe a hands on workshop ? ....we do not want a sailing wardrobe mishap!
Well, Rich:
Think of it this way: If one has an "A" size thing but only has a "C" size bra, things tend to get a bit sloppy, ya know. the bra, or sail doesn't have anything to hold it's shape.
Or course, there are more technical, albeit less entertainingly graphic explanations available. Try to visulalize your sail looking staight down as if from a plane. A proper sail in good condition will have the shape, more of less, of an airplane wing. The foil shape of the wing is what gives it lift and ultimately, what keeps it up in the air. The sail shape does the same thing although the "lift" is forward. I'm speaking of this in terms of going to windward. This is where the "A" size comes in.
When the wind is from the stern, we are trying to fill the sails with the "C" size wind and want a fuller sail as in a spinakker.
I'm sure there are those here who can add to this in a clearer way than I can.
All these years, I knew those sails reminded me of something! Taking Caboose's expanation to the next level gives me ideas for sail graphics!
Bob23
I'm going to stay out of the bra analogy, but I do have some advice on the heeling/capsize/girlfriend issue.
KEEP THE GIRLFRIEND HAPPY WHEN SAILING
This comes from experience. I love rough weather and took my 16 out in 20-30mph winds with gusts up to 34-35 a number of times. With a deep reef in my worn out main, a 110 jib (would have used smaller if I had smaller), and the hatch board in, I felt completely safe, although she would get blown on to her side a bit when the big gusts hit. Now, would my wife feel safe in that situation? No way, it would have freaked her out and she would have refused to step foot in the boat again. Even in lighter conditions, she didn't particularly like the heeling when we first started sailing, so I would reef early and chose points of sail that limited heel. You can show her all the calculations and specifications for the boat, you can show her message board postings, and she can know logically that it won't tip over, but when the gust hits and the boat heels, logic will stand no chance against raw animal fear. Plus, with the shoal keel, the CP16 sails upwind MUCH better if you keep the boat as upright as possible.
It has taken 2.5 years, but my wife now trusts the boat and even gets a rush sailing in the heavy weather.
The foil descriptions are right.
As said, looking down from the sky on the sail, it should look like an airplane wing. Wings or foils would bow out quickly then taper back slowly. The large diameter point of the sail should be forward of the center line. That produces lift, and if the large point is forward, it will produce forward lift and move you ahead. If the large diameter of the sail is, say,halfway back, that is not a foil shape but rather would look like a half moon so to speak. That produces lift too, albeit not as efficient, but the direction of the lift moves from forward to sideways. If the bow is halfway out, you may as well as a tarp from kmart powering your boat.
Do a google search on foil shape efficiency for more information as I'm not 'susplaining it too well!
I knew I would get blasted for my "bra" posting. So, let's try again.
Tires - Old or new, it's still rubber. But old tires don't do as good as new tires.
Sails get worn, stretched, worn, blown out, etc. Don't ask old sails to perform as new ones.
Going downwind - a bed-sheet will work. But don't ask it to close haul.
I like your first analogy better...easier to picture.
The first winter I owned my 23, I sent the sails to Sailcare for cleaning and reconditioning. Needless to say, they came back crispy and new looking. But, that only lasted for a few years and now they are back to thier old, kinda blown-out self. But for original sails (1985) they really are not too bad. I suppose this will be the year I treat "Koinonia" to some new sexy lingerie! I'm thinking something in red!!!
Bob23
Matt- Hope you know I was just messing around a bit but no question, it is true that some people do find litle sailboats a bit intimidating.
I saw in your other post you're a new sailer. Congrats on picking a great first boat!
The advice here is excellent. NateD is spot on. Tell ya what I would do, and that's leave her at home for a few sails until YOU are comfortable with it and get to know it's limits, and get to know how to be a better sailor including all the skills listed. Get out when it's windy, know how to reef and handle it, get comfortable and confident. Remember you are well in control of speed, heeling, pitching due to wave action,etc. Knowing how and when to reef and dealing with tides and wave action in your sailing area is especially important. Go out when it's wind yand practice, read up on skills and practice a bit. Remember the tighter the sheets, the more it will heel (closehauled), so you can always let the boom out a bit and it will sail flatter. Keeping the boat moving will help keep it from pitching around in waves. Bet you in 3-4 outings with good wind you'll feel like a captain ready for the first mate's easy cruise. Seeing your confidence in handling the boat will make it a lot easier for her to trust things too. Then the fun can begin, and I bet in no time she'll be having a blast.
So back the bras, sorry I mean sails. Like sails, the curve is everything. Old bras, errr, I mean sails are often "included" on older used boats. When an ad says "sails are good", that usually means they aren't ripped or worn out looking but aren't as good they used to be. If the shape isn't right, they just aren't as functional. Are we still talking abut sails?
There is a pretty good wiki entry on sail aerodynamics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sail
Hey salty hah i know you guys are just joking and this forum has been so much help!! I feel bad that im asking all these questions its just books can only tell you so much and all of you have real world experience! She just got really nervous because the first day we got on the boat she climed on from the side and it looked like the entire boat was going to flip over right then and there!! haha that would of been a disaster! Anyways if you guys know some about mooring boats you should look at my mooring question i posted too!! hah bob has already started to help me with ideas. Thanks again for the help, there arnt many "haters" on this forum and that's rare now
Matt,
I agree LOTS of good people on this Board. I really enjoy it. And yes there is lots of books out there, just not a lot on Com-Pacs.
I made the mistake of taking my wife out w/ me when I 1st started sailing too. The wind would pick up and the boat would heel and she would get scared...then mad! Just remember..."when in doubt, let it out". the sheets and bras!!!! But just like Salty said, w/ my experience and confidence now she goes out w/ me sometimes and can handle it when the boat heels. It just takes time.
As far as climbing on the boat, think of it like a pendulum. If you hold a sledge hammer straight down by your side it is very easy to swing to about 30 maybe even 45 degrees. However, keeping you arm straight, it is almost impossible to lift the hammer above 90 degrees. you could put 3 big adults on the combing of a 16 and still not get the rail in the water. And evn if it did start to go, they are self righting. as soon as the load is removed, the boat will go right back to the upright position.
And a far as Salty's comment about know when to reef..... I say the 1st time you question if you should. It is always easier to reef before the wind really pics up. Does your main have a reefing point?
WOW.... mention bras or their contents on this forum and the thing blows up! I KNEW I was in the right place. LOL
on the subject of sails, salty is right. the best money i have spent on my 16 was for a new mainsail. by the "seat of the pants" measuring stick shes faster and points higher. and as every com-pac sailor has found out---have a foil rudder either store bought or home made. hey mike bring your brother this year if you can
I dont think the sail has reefing points on the bottom of it, i am most likely going to send the sail to sailcare and get it cleaned up refurbished and im pretty sure they can install reefing holes too for me!!
Matt,
I bought new sails for my 19 from a guy in St. Pete about 2 years ago. I got a Main (w/ 1 reef) a 110 Jib & a 150 Genoa for $900. I thought it was a pretty good price for 3 brand new sails
When I had the 16 he quoted me at around $350 for a main (I think), and he has several used but in good shape jibs from snarks (i think) that he said would fit a 16 and they were anywhere from $50-$250.
His name is Paul Silvernail and his company is called Masthead enterprise. He has a whole loft full of sails. If your enterested tell him you know me and I bet he'll give you a good deal.
Let's not forget about having a nice smooth bottom.
Maybe I should just stop before we move into PG-13 ratings.
Your name, Caboose, is soooo fitting to your post!!!
And I think we passed PG13 a long time ago.....
But yea, smooth AND ROUND! reduces weather helm!
I guess thats why they always call boats "Her"
I bought sails from masthead about 5years ago, they are great people to work with. BILL