Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

Okay, here is a history of what were dealing with.  I love sailboats.  I have loved sailboats all my life, and occassionally had the chance to spend time on somebody elses boat, which I deeply appreciated.  Last summer I finally decided that I wasn't just dreaming anymore, and I bought an ole CP-16.  I have read a lot, but I don't know what I'm doing, although I am enjoying ever minute of it.  I respect these guys that refurb old cars, but I never was interested enough myself to put that much effort into a car.  Well the boat is different, and I plan to pimp my ride, and I hope you guys provide plenty of comment along the way.

Some things I'm seriously considering are:

TRAILER MODIFICATIONS - Modify trailer to fit in my 20' garage.  Most if not all of the trailer modifications are done.  They include adding a swing to the tongue; relocating leaf springs below the axle to lower boat level; and a removable tongue extension for when on the ramp.

LEAD BALLAST - Replacing some concrete in the ballast with lead.  I like the idea of less wasted space. [Already received some fine feedback on that, and am reconsidering whether to do it.  Probably will, but need to reassess the final objective.]

BOWSPRIT - Adding a fairly long bowsprit.  I like the look of bowsprits, especially the old timey wooden looking ones, but my garage will not accomodate any more LOA, so it needs to be removable.

ROLLER FURLERING JIB - Do it youself design.  Thanks for the tips I have already received.

SAIL AREA - Increasing the sail area.  I'd like to increase the above the waterline height at the top of the mast, before replacing my old sails.  That plus the bowsprit/forestay change would add more overall sail area.

WATERTIGHT CABIN - I need to make the boat more watertight in the event of a capsize.

COCKPIT ENCLOSURE - Add a removable enclosure that can function as a bimini and possibly a dodger, as well as a cockpit tent depending on which pieces are connected.

Well that is the majority of the plans so far.

Wow, you have quite a list there!!! May I add a IDA or homemade foiled rudder?  You won't be sorry.

What about a tilting/hinged bowsprit? That way you can bolt it well to the "superstructure"..lol   When needed, tilt down, attach bobstay and forestay with mast/furler. Easier than unbolting?

Thought you would like to see this pic.  Doug142 on this forum made the spool for me.  The rest I made out of PVC using the instructions you've probably seen with some minor modification.

(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z290/yamaholic_mcarp/PICT7593.jpg)

For sail area, since you're going to need a new forestay anyway for the bowsprit, you could raise the rigging to be 7/8 or near masthead rigged and fit your genoa to match the added lenght.  Maybe a 200% genoa?  But be aware your bow pulpit maybe too short.  You'll want to at least think about the possibility that you may have to extend the bow pulpit for the forestay to reach a long bowsprit.


Good luck and we're all waiting to see and hear about your project!

Salty,

Beautiful spool!  Is that wood?  What kind?  Is that pic from the 16 or 19?  Thanks for the great tips.

It's made out of solid Mahagony with Cetol Natural Teak coating and about 4-5 layers of Minwax helmsman Spar Urethane Varnish.  It matches the rest of the teak pretty well actually.  The interior of the drum is various widths of PVC tubing as is the spar to fit the sail. Ping Doug142 on this forum to see if he'll make one for you at a small price. His workmanship is excellent! (it would not look that good if I tried to make it it!)

The boat is a 1982 CP16/I. 

   my furler has a welded aluminum spool and single piece pvc foil. e mail me and ill send you some pics

Cool my furler is solid Harken.
Outrageously expensive. Glad the first owner, Lloyd, had the dealer, Yacht Works, install the Harken size '00'.
Unfortunately Lloyde's wife died and he never got this boat wet.
Having lost a crew member, Lloyd purchased a new Sun Cat in dark blue. I bought Lloyde's boat.

skip.

Is the Com-Pac 16 a fractional rig? If it is and you wanted to add a bowsprit you could size the bowsprit so that the angle of the new fore stay would match the angle of the original fore stay but would run from the masthead to the tip of the bowsprit. Leave the original forestay (now an inner stay) and you would have a cutter rig of sorts. There probably wouldn't be enough of a "slot" between stays for it to be an effective cutter rig, but you could perhaps use the new fore stay for a little clipper sail or on light wind days you can fly a larger genoa, or a small stay sail on the inner stay and a large genoa on a furler on the new fore stay.... yeah, I like that! It looks real good in my mind  :)

...the bobstay to the bow eye, maybe a couple bow sprit shrouds for good measure. If you support your new bowsprit adequately with stays and shrouds, you should have no issue with a hinge on your sprit to swing it out of the way when you're stuffing her back in the garage.  Hmmm... I like it a lot!

--Greg

kchunk-that slot between foreshrouds would only be able 1.5' wide. Original rigging is 3/4.  Not enough for a jib to pass over it when tacking. But I like the creativity!

Skip-yep the harken furler you have it probably the best one out there.  They are quite pricey if you've ever looked them up!

I dunno Salty. I think it will work great. I'm getting my inspiration from a Newport Venture 23. My buddy has one. Granted a bigger boat, but the idea will certainly work. Here's a web site I found. This is not my friend's boat, but it's the same thing:

http://www.hbrhealthcare.com/vn23wow/vn23wow.htm (http://www.hbrhealthcare.com/vn23wow/vn23wow.htm)

Here are a few sample images:

The bowsprit is attached atop the deck:

(http://www.hbrhealthcare.com/vn23wow/bow%20forward%201.jpg)


Inner stay at the same location of the original fore stay and new fore stay at the end of the bowsprit with bobstay to the bow eye:

(http://www.hbrhealthcare.com/vn23wow/bowsprit%202.JPG)


Both stays terminate pretty close together up the mast:

(http://www.hbrhealthcare.com/vn23wow/venture%20or%20newport%202.jpg)


In the case of the Com-Pac, terminating the new fore stay closer to the masthead and maybe even taking the bowsprit out a foot and a half or even a bit more will both increase the sail area and help with the crazy weather helm of the little 16 without a bowsprit. And not to mention, probably make it the best looking Com-Pac 16 around.

One drawback, like you said, tacking will be different...not impossible, not difficult for that matter, but different. If you were to opt for the small yankee jib (like seen on the Newport Venture), that little sail will go through the slot no problem. If you opted for a larger genoa, you'd probably need a roller furler and have to reef the genoa a bit before tacking. On a small lake where you'd be tacking quite a bit, that might be an issue, but for bay or coastal cruising where you could spend all day on a single tack, that big genny would be perfect.

This summer my family and I cruised from Key Largo to Marathon, FL over a 3-day period. We sailed a port tack the whole way down...three days without tacking!  lol  :D

--Greg

I think it would work. I will measure my bowspirit, but I am sure it is at least 15 , if not enough , could add a extension on front of bowspirit to gain more room between two stays. The real problem may come from moving the "out" stay up the mast . Stress may be greater than the mast can take, currently all three stays meet at the same area thus countering or balancing/canceling each other out .....going up to the garage to measure.......Phil

Phil, The mast should be fine as long as it's equally supported by the standing rigging...BUT! You brought up a good point. I forgot the 16 doesn't have an aft stay...does it? I guess this mod will require an aft stay in addition. I suppose that's no too much of a big deal. The new fore and aft stays don't have to be heavy because they're just "auxiliary" rigging of sorts and not really required to support the mast as the mast is supported just fine by it's original rigging. But now we're adding the weight of two stays and the sail "up there" as Skip would say. Personally, I don't think it would be too much of an issue but I'm sure there will be others who'll disagree.

Maybe perform this mod concurrent with the lead ballast mod and the increased force of the lead will balance the increase weight aloft of the new rigging...lol  8)

--Greg

Interesting conversation.  It will be fun to see what you come up with, Okie!!   

Greg, haven't been to the garage, I am not concerned about the weight, but the bending or breaking of the mast between the stays at the top of the mast, old people worry a lot....Phil

You guys are giving me some good ideas.  Also I went to the link Greg posted; they did a lot of work to that Venture; great pics.

I really like the length of that bowsprit.  I have two conflicting goals, but looking at this picture, those goals may not conflict at all.  One, I would like a pretty long bowsprit.  Two, if the sprit gets too long, the foresail may end-up being too far forward screwing up the boat's balance.  After seeing these photo's, I realized (the obvious) that the forestay can be placed anywhere along the sprit, it doesn't necessarilly need to be placed at the end.  So I could have my cake and eat it too.

I doubt I'm coordinated enough to handle two foresails, although it does appear to be an option.

Actually, Bob, I think the extra sail forward will help to balance the boat which is already off balance, i.e. excessive weather helm.

And I've sailed on a Newport Venture...managing the extra sail is nothing...and besides, it'll be such a cute little sail on a 16, how possibly could it be unmanageable? ;)

Guys, went to garage, 14 inches from forestay to hole in guide frame for anchor roller on front of standard bowspirit (CP16), me thinks enough room to slip a sail through with the aid of a line or two............Phil

My 16 was cutter rigged when I bought it. An older man in Arkansas had bolted a 2"x6" of treated pine to the foredeck for a bowsprit and used steel cable and cable clamps for the forestay and the bobstay. The original jib was used as a staysail and he had a loft in Tulsa cut a new foresail. When I got the boat, all of this was rusted or rotten and I returned the boat to the fractional sloop rig as original. His kids that sold me the boat told me their Dad loved the way the boat sailed as a cutter. He had it on Beaver Lake in the early 80's and then bought a Cape Dory 25 and the 16 sat under the pines and oaks and gathered water and moss....

  (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z119/dscobra/compac16list.jpg)
Sitting in Arkansas

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z119/dscobra/cp161.jpg)

Back to better than new!!!!

Effectively, that's kinda what I'm picturing, minus the steel cable, clamps, pressure treated pine, rust, rot, etc. I suppose the materials one uses would be up to the individual. How far in front of the bow would you estimate the 2X6 went...just curious. Did it have an aft stay? I bet it did sail nice...probably looked like crap, but sailed nice.

BTW...sweet job you've done on your boat there!

Thanks, I remember it was about 4' long and he had 2 3/8" bolts through bolted in front of and behind the area where the cleat is on the factory layout. He had moved the cleat back and had the bobstay clamped to the boweye. That means there was about 3' out in front of the bow. When I looked at it and thought of renewing the cutter rig, I was concerned about the lack of a back stay and the strain of that much sail on the rig. I don't think Arkansas and the Ozarks gets the strong and gusting wind that we get here in Kansas and decided to be conservative with the rig.

Quote from: kchunk on December 17, 2009, 03:48:31 PM
besides, it'll be such a cute little sail on a 16, how possibly could it be unmanageable? ;)

No question, it would look sweet; a 16 foot boat with two foresails.  I've noticed how amazing these PDR guys can pimp-out their 8 foot boats; I've even seen one with two foresails.

So I have two questions:  The first and most important question, "Is the deck at the bow strong enough to support the sprit (taking into consideration standing rigging suppports)?"  Second, "Would I want two furlers (one for each foresail)?"  But the deck attachment is the critical step.

    Daryl, The boat looks great!  COM-PAC owners can see her beauty beneath the grime. Every COM-PAC needs a good home.   BILL

besides, it'll be such a cute little sail on a 16, how possibly could it be unmanageable?"

Go ahead turn the sloop into a cutter with an additional sail. The more canvas spread, the merrier.
Well tell you what son, little boats roll over a heck of a lot more easily then big boats. And because of the small size maneuvers either planned or unplanned happen much faster. Which is why 'dinky' racing is such a gas!!

"Is the deck at the bow strong enough to support the sprit"

Best guess is that the bow sprit just doesn't hang on the deck. The bow sprit installed on Wind Rover was through bolted through a stainless steel flat bar on edge and then through the fiberglass deck just below the radius, the strongest point. So plenty of meat there to hold the bow sprit down, and as always the dolphin between the end of the bow sprit and the hull is the cable that actually takes the strain of the fore stay, not the sprit. And the sprit simply holds the bow sprit 'out there' and if properly constructed is a vee and will not open the vee up to allow the bow sprit to be pulled back toward the stern.

"Would I want two furlers (one for each foresail)?"  But the deck attachment is the critical step"

Furlers anchored at the factory tang are more then fine. A second tang can be placed anywhere on the deck as long as the through bolting has a back up plate. For back up plates I use 6mm aluminum plate. But 1/2" marine ply works just as well. For the size I'd go with 4" x 4" square or the size of a CD round. Can you imagine pulling a CD through the deck? I can't.

I anchor the tac of my asymmetrical spinnaker high above the deck and as far out in front of the hull as possible directly onto the bow pulpit that has 4 round feet with 4~1/4" bolts* each running through plywood hard points under the deck. Since the bow pulpit is all welded, your not going to break a weld so using an old solid flat rubber strap with a 1/4" line and bowline eye looped through the strap becomes the tac. The rubber strap is looped around the 3/4" thinwall stainless steel tubing. The loop allows the tac to move port to starboard when changing tac. This huge sails pulls like a bear, driving the boat smartly and the pulpit stays put. The spinnaker's clue is sheeted to the stern cleat. Here we are doing some drift sailing.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/ComPactoMichigan071.jpg)

It's all about spreading out the strain. And Com-Pac's being a resign impregnated 1-1/2 once cloth of multi-layers with zero core are a heck of a lot stronger then decks built up using a chop gun. Stay away from those boats built like this. It's fine for the dune buggy bodies I use to shoot. These bodies did not have to do anything but sit on a floor pan.

*1/4" or 0.25" x 10,000 lb divided by 4 = 625 lb x 16 bolts = 10,000 lb. So your not going to shear bolts or pull the pulpit out of the deck either. Heck that's 4 times the weight of the 2000 lb Com Pac 19 boat.

Wire rigging:

Our standing rigging is 5/32 and good for 2,400 to 2,800 lb. So we are WAY good as far as backing plates are concerned.

(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Wirerope.jpg)

skip.

Our standing rigging is 5/32" and good for 2,400 to 2,800 lb. or 3,300 lb.
So we are WAY good as far as backing plates are concerned.

skip.

Skip,

Beautiful boat!!!  Thanks for the rigging specs.

Hey I hate to be dense, but are saying I need to design the bowsprit so that some of the force is pushing against the outside of the hull to relieve the deck stress, or are you saying the deck is so strong I don't need to worry about the deck stress?

"I need to design the bowsprit so that some of the force is pushing against the outside of the hull" Hummmmm what does this mean? What ever that means I did not say that. Let me say this about that...being a bit long winded...

No not exactly. The bow sprit if one was to place it on the ground would have an open vee made out of teak and that will snug right up to the bow, wow, wow just above the rubber rub rail and sit atop the ss metal cap where both rub strips come together.
This whole wood piece is surrounded by a stainless steel flat bar on edge and the ends of this surround are long enough for three bolts going through the deck's edge. Just above the hull/deck seam.

What I meant was that the fwd stay at the end of the bow sprit will impose a strain on the bow sprit and push that wood vee into the pointy end of the hull. The wood will survive this strain because the ss flatbar will limit the bow sprits movement.

Additionally the fwd stay will be held down and secured with the dolphin stay under the bow sprit and the hull tow eye and the tang that secures the dolphin.

Plenty of meat up there to do this job just fine.

The deck needs nothing using such a small sail except a backing plate where ever the second tang for the cutter sail lands on the deck. I'll bet West Marine has just such a tang for this purpose.

Interesting because 'Wind Rover' had a bow sprit added the extra tang to secure a second fwd stay for a second sail was available. It just worked out that way. Captain Rank uses this extra fwd stay for his 'soling stay' and storm jib.

skip.

oakieBob, I have 14 inches on my bow spirit,1978 CP16, just worked out on paper that carrying the 14 inches at the same angle as the  fore stay would take the new outer stay to the top of the mast (new stay would be 19 feet long) , thus any bow spirit that would move the added (new) outer stay further than approx. 14 inches would have the stay going over the top of the mast if you were going to keep the same distance between stays, I hope my cal. are correct, but if not I am sure someone will correct me........Phil

I did the same thing Phil and came up with about the same length...but after seeing the stays on the Newport Venture I dismissed the idea that the stays need to be parallel. I'm sure there's a theoretical "ideal" length of the bowsprit taking into account the sail area, placement of the mast, size of the sails, length at the waterline, displacement, yadda, yadda, yadda. All those calculations are way above my abilities of armchair naval architect. If I were doing it I'd make a nice long bowsprit of a length I found most visually appealing and maybe mess around with a few old sails to try different size setups.

kchuck, in the relatively short distance of 15 feet(inside stay) and 19 feet (outside stay) by not having the slot between the stays (sails) parallel would ruin the max. air flow (drawing power) of the sails and also make for a funny looking boat (one mans opinion).............Phil

Ah...beauty (as well as funny looking) is in the eye of the beholder. Did you see the picture of the Newport Venture I posted earlier in this thread? A mighty handsome looking boat in my opinion. The stays are no where near parallel.

I think the idea with a project like this, with the space between stays being relatively short, is to go with a yankee sail on the forward stay (I think that little sail is called a yankee...I can't remember for sure). This way you're not trying to drag a large jib or genoa through what would be considered a relatively small slot for a cutter.

--Greg

Greg, as usual you are right, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I did see the pictures of the Newport Venture......what can I say ,except as a man who loves hogs (pigs) and finds them beautiful, who am I to judge other people who don't have an eye for form and function ,"just kidding"..........sail on, Phil

I noticed that the CP-19, 'Wind Rover' factory built without a bow sprit DID NOT need an a new fwd stay when the new bow sprit was fitted because the 10" or so long bow sprit came up to meet the tang of the fwd stay at the end of the bow sprit. Just worked out that way. Then of course the dolphin came with a turnbuckle in it's length so that was no problem to pull tention.
Note the boom 'crutch'. Cheap and works well. A piece of cable and four U-bolt clamps, a ringed quick disconnect and a little PVC tape. Don't forget to release the boom vang and the boom's sheet prior to lifting the boom to unclamp once the sail is up.
Those are Wal-Mart pool noodles in blue.
This boat is equipped with radar and still has the four purchase side by side boom sheet block that simply does not work and keeps twisting up making it hard to sheet out at times. I changed my boat over to four purchase in-line block. No twisting.


.[/color](http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Boatpics007.jpg) [/center]W.B.S. Without 'Bow Sprit'.

skip.

Traditonally, a cutter staysail (which is what you guys are really ending up with) is handled by running backstays to keep the mast from flexing. On a small mast like what is on our Compacs, i see that as a real problem. We probably all know there are two ways of handling lots of weather helm: weaken the main or increase the strength of the jib. If it gets too blustery, I aways reef the main and the jib, just maybe the main a little more.
OkieBob- how long have you had your little Compac? An old salt once gave me a bit of advice that I have since found to be true: First sail the boat.  I make it a rule of thumb not to do anything (but safety repairs) to a used boat until I have sailed her for at least one season. See what the original designers had in mind- then if you want to modify her, you can tell if the modification had made her better or worse. In the end, it may make sense just to get a different boat. (My CP-23 for example, came with a bowspirit from the manufactures.)
Now that may not be what you want to hear....but it would have saved me thousands of $$ if I would have listened earlier.

Everyone keeps talking about the weather helm on CP16, never had that problem on my 16 ,because early on kept moving the angle of the mast aft until just enough weather helm for sailing safety. You can move jib triangle forward to help correct weather helm also. After finding right mast angle never needed to adjust again......... moving the angle of the mast aft worked for me..........Phil

I never had the weather helm problem with my CP16, either. I tinkered with adjustments to the standing rigging the first few times out until I got it tensioned to a point that made sense to me, and it has sailed like a champ all season. It points better than what I hear reported from many other 16 owners and exhibits just a healthy amount of weather helm; I wouldn't want any more or any less. I guess I just got lucky.

Milt

I say scrap the cutter idea and go with a single large genoa with a 7/8 rigged forestay and NACA 0012 shaped rudder. 

With the furler you can take the huge sail area up or down as weather dictates.  I just don't think there is enough room on a 16 there to make a cutter worthwhile plus you have to figure out a way to control the sheets.  That's just me. I like to modify and improve my boat but this mod seems to be a little too much for such a small boat.

As for changing the mast height, I wouldn't do this mainly because it won't buy you much.  The keel and hull shape can only take so much power before the rail is in the water.  With new sails and a NACA0012 shaped foil rudder, you too will be putting the rail underwater.  Your experience is clouded because your boat has worn out sails and probably feels slow because it is slow.  With new sails and a rudder your boat will feel very sporty in comparison.

Okie-  How are your projects coming along so far?? 

   speaking of modifications, i know others on the site have added bowsprits to their cp16-1s. this would enable one to have a masthead rig and a much larger jib. i wonder if this would cause a cp16-1 to heel excessively given its lack of centerboard?

An added bow sprit and excess heeling over?

NOPE!
But the one and only time I ever put my cockpit combing into the water and had water roll over into the cockpit and out the scupper of my C-P 19 was on a 155% head sail lapper. Main sail was lashed to the boom.

Took me years of trying before I was successful at this. The picture here is that day and the 'crew' was my sister-in-law. We were sailing at the point where the Fox river dumps into the 'cut' through Sturgeon Bay, heading right puts you in Lake Michigan, about 7 miles away. Have to find the photos...

Crew is coming down the pier for an afternoon on the water.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Boatpics044.jpg)
On the water, head sail only. Very nice out.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Boatpics027.jpg)
At last put the rail down this after noon. A little burrrrr!
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Boatpics010.jpg)


Crew committed suicide two years ago. skip.

Quote from: kickingbug1 on January 26, 2010, 08:15:53 PM
   speaking of modifications, i know others on the site have added bowsprits to their cp16-1s. this would enable one to have a masthead rig and a much larger jib. i wonder if this would cause a cp16-1 to heel excessively given its lack of centerboard?

I kinda agree with skip on this one. Excessive healing is not necessarily a function of how much canvas you have up but rather more so of how your sails are trimmed. What I mean is even without a masthead rig and a larger jib, in the right wind, you can still trim the sails in a way that will result in excessive healing. The advantage of the larger sail will be in light winds. If the wind pipes up you'll need to ease your sail trim, reef and/or change sails.

--Greg

   The admiral does not enjoy excessive healing, so I have learned that the 16 will sail just as fast without a lot of healing, and it is more comfortable than hanging on.    my 2 cents   BILL

Seems that the 23 and 16 share the same basic hull shape while the 19 has a flatter bottom. My 23 seems to like at least 10 degrees of heel; I'd imagine the 16 is about the same. The 19, however, is designed to sail flatter. I'm not a designer or engineer so, take this with a grain of saltwater.
Bob23

Bob23 the 19 does and was designed to sail it's best at as flat a heel as possible.
It's the fastest when upright. So 'they' say. The 16 and 23 share same designers I think. I do know the 19 had a different designer and that the hull shape was tank tested in a NASA facility.

skip.  

The 19 hull was designed by Bob Johnson of Island Packet fame.  HenryC interviewed him for GOB a while back.

TG