Anybody else with an eclipse have trouble with the boat ending up in irons when tacking? It's almost as bad as my 23 was with the original flat blade rudder before I replaced it with a ruddercraft rudder.
Also tried sailing with just the jib the first time on the water this year as conditions were a bit blustery and found it impossible to sail the boat. It just kept falling off to the point where it was making almost no headway. The rudder just wasn't effective enough to overcome the force on the jib.
I know the eclipse is supposed to sail better than the 23 but it feels far worse to me, almost to the point where I wish I had stayed with the 23. I'm probably missing something but I've been sailing since the mid 80's and this is the worst performing boat of any that I've owned (6 so far).
Fred
Fred
Although I don't have as much experience as you, I've not found that the boat is getting stuck in irons often. I have used the technique that Al showed me of backwinding the jib while tacking to push the nose around which also helps to keep the jib from hanging up on the pin on the front of the mast. I have found that with higher wind conditions a reefed main and reduced jib balance pretty well.
Our SunCat has a bit of difficulty coming about in some conditions, and easing the sail out further than I would expect to be necessary catches enough wind to give the rudder a bite.
Fred. Here are some thoughts. The Eclipse is very dependent on sail position as most small boats are. When you get in irons or just before let out the main. Also backwind the Genoa during a tack and let it push the bow through irons. Works every time for me. Good luck and keep in mind that you do not have the mass through the water to carry you through a tack that you had with the 23. You need some boat speed which will only be achieved with sail position. If you ever start wandering with the rudder being ineffective let out the sail! Good luck and don't give up on the Eclipse.
Quote from: Fastdoc98 on June 25, 2022, 08:31:36 AM
I have found that with higher wind conditions a reefed main and reduced jib balance pretty well.
Normally I wouldn't sail this boat with jib alone, but it was the first outing after launching and when I went to raise the main I discovered that I had the main halyard fouled inside the "baby" stays on the mast above the spreader so opted to try sailing with just the jib rather than go back in and untangle the main halyard.
Fred
Quote from: alsantini on June 25, 2022, 10:59:03 AM
Fred. Here are some thoughts. The Eclipse is very dependent on sail position as most small boats are. When you get in irons or just before let out the main. Also backwind the Genoa during a tack and let it push the bow through irons. Works every time for me. Good luck and keep in mind that you do not have the mass through the water to carry you through a tack that you had with the 23. You need some boat speed which will only be achieved with sail position. If you ever start wandering with the rudder being ineffective let out the sail! Good luck and don't give up on the Eclipse.
With just the jib by the time I let the sail out enough that enough that the rudder was effective again I had lost so much speed that she still wouldn't tack. After many attempts I finally gave up on tacking and gybed the boat. I forgot about backwinding the jib. I used to do that with my 23 when it still had the flat blade rudder but didn't need to do it anymore after switching to the ruddercraft rudder.
Thanks for the tips guys.
Fred
Fred
A couple of suggestions from a catboat (PC and HC) sailor but this should apply.
If you're very close hauled prior to tacking, fall off the wind a bit to pick up a bit more speed and then tack. The extra speed may get you through the tack. You may have to trim the sails a little for this.
Also I find it helpful to turn the rudder somewhat gradually when tacking. Too slowly and you'll probably stop before getting through the eye of the wind, too abruptly and the drag of the rudder will slow you down and you'll probably stall the blade. How gradually? You'll need to develop a feel for it, but maybe 3-5 seconds from dead ahead to hard over. I think of it as maintaining a constant angle of attack of the rudder blade to the water flow - as the boat begins to turn you can crank in more rudder to maintain that angle.
Hope that makes sense .....
Andre
I'll need to pay more attention to how quickly I'm turning the rudder. My guess is I'm turning it faster than you mentioned.
Thx.
Fred
Agree with all that's been offered. A couple more thoughts.
We don't have a shoal keel, but I have found if I've neglected to add some centerboard when we come into the wind that subsequent tacks can be difficult. Lacking lateral resistance, the boat will slide sideways rather than tack. The shoal keel alone may be enough.
Also, dragging an outboard can adversely effect a tack. The stern doesn't want to come around.
I'm sailing in deep water so centerboard is always completely down and my outboard tilts high enough to not drag. I'll be out again this weekend so I'll try the suggestions and see how it goes.
Thanks
Fred
I'd also check your mast rake. Mine when supplied had the mast leaning way forward. Gerry said it tended to come back better when sailing because most people's ballast tended to move the mast back towards vertical. Not sure about that, but I added a few inches to my furler/forestay ( to clear the anchor) and find it now sails beautifully, and looks much better as well.
Interesting that you say that. My mast also leans forward and does look a bit odd to my eye. Probably is closer to vertical with 2 adults in the cockpit but never thought to check that. Right now I've only got a 2.2kg claw anchor because that's the largest anchor that would fit under the furler drum and that's really too small of an anchor for a boat of this size.
Fred
Out yesterday I tinkered with the "slower rudder" idea and it did seem to help.
Unrelated, I noticed that 2 of the 4 sail slides had broken (probably last time out, since it was pretty noticeable), leaving the slide bits in the mast. I am guessing that one of them failed (probably simply wore through most of the way, and took another compromised one with it). As it happened there were a few old spares aboard and repairs were pretty quick, and new spares are in hand.
Had Sylvia out over the weekend and tried tacking under jib alone in light wind (<3 knot, barely a ripple) As Fred experienced it's not easy to get through a tack, The lift on the jib through the air can easily equal or overcome the lift force on the rudder through the water and you end up just slipping sideways. A few things I found to make it work. Board must be all the way down. Bear off to gain some speed then as you bear up let out the jib and let it luff so it doesn't "pull on" the front of the boat as you turn. You should be able to get it just past head to wind and then the jib will backwind and push you through the turn. If the boat stops dead with the jib backwinded turn the rudder the opposite way and you will turn through as the boat backs up. You may end up on a beam reach by the time you get the jib set to the other side and start moving again. Not sure if it's faster than going through a 270 deg gybe but it's good to figure out how to handle different conditions.
I had the eclipse out this last week on Lk Huron and again ended up in irons. I'd estimate winds were around 15 kt gusting over 20, seas were 1 to 2 ft. I was sailing on a broad reach and slowly turned the rudder (2 - 3 seconds) and left the jib sheeted so it would backwind but even though i had around 4kts of boat speed I still ended up in irons. At times I really hate this boat!
Fred
Fred,
You can't start a tack on a broad reach and expect any boat to make it all the way past head to wind unless you sheet in both the main and headsail as you turn up to keep power on as you come to a close reach. Did you have the main up? Getting the Eclipse or any sloop rig through a tack with just the headsail out in any conditions will be more difficult. The lifting force on the headsail wants to pull the bow away from the turn. You need the force on the main to help pull the stern around.
In my 5th season with the Eclipse and I can't say I've ever really gotten stuck in irons with both sails up. She's a pretty easy boat to beat with even single handed, just having simple cleats on the jib sheets.
Main was up. I've owned 5 other sloops in the last 40 years and none of them would have had a problem tacking in the conditions I was in. The only exception to that was my CP23 which would end up in irons in light wind until I replaced the original flat slab rudder with a ruddercraft rudder. After that it tacked fine as well.
Maybe it's just because all the other boats were considerably heavier and with the extra mass had enough momentum to see them through the tack?
I guess I'm just frustrated between the way it sails and the long list of quality issues I've encountered. Every time I look too closely at the boat I seem to find another problem. Last one was 6 out of 8 screws for the cockpit locker and gas tank locker hinges where over tightened and stripped out. Plus the fact that they weren't through bolted - just wood screws.
Fred
I owned an Eclipse for 3 seasons and the only issue I had with going into irons was when the jib sheets would snag on something. This was fixed by mounting a whisker pole on the mast attached to an eye on the deck. 4 knots in a 15 mph breeze sounds a little slow. I?m wondering if your main is sheeted in a little tight causing it to stall. You may want to let the main breathe a little more - releasing it can actually help you complete a tack sometimes. My Eclipse was not a rocket but it is a well balanced, mannerly boat. My biggest complaint was my own fault - I?m probably shorter from standing up under the arch repeatedly. Regards, Eddie C.
For reasons I have been unable figure out yet, my eclipse actually sails slower on a beam reach than when I'm close hauled.
I've played around with sail trim and have found that by the time I let the main out far enough on a beam reach that I can get all 4 tell tales on the main streaming out properly the luff of the main is being backwinded by the jib. If I release the jib more the jib tell tales stall.
I think I've ended up in irons more times than I've been able to tack successfully the first attempt.
I concur with the getting shorter. Every time I move on the boat I'm hitting my head, knees, or elbows on something.
Fred
Fred,
Is your mast rake way off? Sounds like you may have it a few degrees forward of vertical. I've known of more than a couple Eclipses with this issue and it will have an impact on sail trim and balance. I can't say how stock mine was when I got it, but on first setup with the furler drum connected directly to the steamhead the mast was leaning forward way too much. The stay turnbuckles were almost all the way out. After installing a long d shackle between the steamhead and furler, and re-adjusting the stays I got it to perfectly square with the hull and it sails well at that angle. It also allows more clearance for an anchor on the roller. I setup the boat on the trailer in my yard, leveled the trailer, then leveled the mast to vertical.
On a beam reach or anywhere down wind of that the traveler also helps a lot. If you don't use it, even with the vang hard on, the main will be too full in moderate to heavy winds. With the traveler out 1/2-2/3 on a beam reach you can use the sheet to get the luff at a better angle through it's full height.
Interesting that you should bring up mast rake. My mast definitely rakes forward. Compared to a catalina 22 that docks next to me the top of my mast is probably 6" forward of his. I called compac and talked to Rich about it and he told me that the mast is raked forward deliberately so that it is in the proper position with a couple of adults in the cockpit.
I think I may try changing the rake anyway. If it helps it would have the added bonus of letting me get a better anchor for the boat. Right now my furler drum is also attached directly to the stemhead and the largest anchor that fits is a 2.2kg claw and in my opinion that's not enough anchor for this boat.
I do use the traveler but don't always bother with the vang as it hasn't helped much with sail trim. Using the vang makes the sail shape look better but the issues I described with the telltales on a beam reach don't improve with the vang.
Fred
Fred. Something is wrong! There is no way you should wind up in irons in 12 kn winds. Perhaps you have the main sheeted in too much. Let it out until you have puckers along the mast. Pull the main sheet it in until you just eliminate the puckers (there probably is a nautical term for "puckers" - I just don't know what it is?) If I had to guess I would think you are sheeted in too much. Don't give up on her or if you do I will buy her! Call if you want to talk. 630-728-6035
Al, That's what I keep thinking too but I haven't figured out what it is. I'd guess the aft end of the boom was our past the boom gallows by 2 ft so I wasn't sheeted in tight and in fact I had done exactly what you described in easing off the main sheet until the main started to backwind and then pulling in the sheet just enough to get remove the backwinding.
Fred
havent been in irons since i owned my cp16 with stock rudder. i cant imagine the eclipse going into irons except maybe in real light air, they do have a small jib
Frank, Do you experience lee helm at all when underway in any direction? If the mast is raked forward enough to cause issues with getting through head to wind I would think it would also be causing some lee helm, or a more neutral helm than ideal when close reaching.
Raking the mast back to perpendicular to the hull can't hurt. It should move the COE aft and help the stern turn through. My Eclipse steers with a slight weather helm when close reaching, and any big gust will add to it. You have to pull on the tiller a fair amount to keep course through a big gust. But it keeps her safe, if I hand the tiller to an inexperienced sailor a big gust will just send her pointing further upwind.
With proper sail trim I can get the boat nicely balanced most of the time to the point where I can sail for minutes at a time with the tiller locked with the tiller clutch. When close hauled it has a very slight weather helm. It also rounds up nicely when hit with a hard gust.
I plan to change the mast rake but it likely will be next spring as I'll be pulling the boat the next time I go up and tow it the 400 miles back home.
Fred
Hi, everyone! I'm following this thread with great interest as, by coincidence, I had the same thing happen to me with my Legacy (Sunny) a few weeks ago, under jib alone as well. The winds were pretty frisky that day and I only have one set of reef points in my mainsail, which I still thought would be too much sail. So I didn't use the mainsail at all, and I put up the storm jib. We were sailing, mostly on a broad reach, sometimes downwind, and eventually I had to tack or gybe. I tried tacking, but ended up in irons. I know with my Legacy, I definitely always need a decent amount of momentum to complete the tack, so I did bring her up to a close reach before tacking, but no dice. I suspect it's because I was using the storm jib and if I'd had the lapper jib up, maybe I could have completed that tack. (I ended up gybing, btw.) All good lessons for me to learn as I get to know my Legacy with each sail we have together. I do, incidentally, also have the Ruddercraft rudder on my Sunny.
Fair winds!
~ Chelle
SV Sunflower (Sunny) | 2021 Com-Pac Legacy
SV No Mas! | 1990 Com-Pac 23D MK3
sailawaywithchelle.wordpress.com (http://sailawaywithchelle.wordpress.com)
Chelle - Good to know that you do have the ruddercraft rudder. I've been contemplating spending the money to replace the stock rudder with a ruddercraft thinking that it might solve my problem. Sounds as if it won't so you just saved me a boat unit!
When I ran into the problem with getting in irons while using just the jib I had my 135 fully unfurled and had the problem so I doubt having a larger jib will help.
MatC - that's interesting. With the flat blade rudder on my 23 the rudder was very ineffective even when motoring at very slow speeds. The ruddercraft rudder fixed that. I've not had any problems with rudder control while motoring at very slow speeds with the eclipse, but after reading your post I may be back to replacing the factory rudder if changing the mast rake doesn't help with the problem. The ruddercraft rudder isn't quite as attractive as the compac stock rudder but it's definitely a more elegant solution when it comes to trailering (no need to remove the rudder) and raising and lowering the rudder.
Fred
Am I the only one on here that isn't a member of facebook, and thus can't access the pix?
Al, I am also not on Facebook. :)
The only other way that I would be aware of sharing pic files, publicly, would be using the Google Files feature, or using Dropbox. (I have heard of Photobucket, too, but I have heard, also, that eventually there is some sort of fee involved, I think, but don't quote me on it.) I believe that, for both, one would need an account, one for Google and likewise for Dropbox, however. Both accounts are free to set up, though I recently tried to set up a Dropbox account, thinking it was free, only to find out they kept harassing me to sign up for some paid membership. So I bailed on it.
Many moons ago, I was able to figure out how to load photos on this forum, but it's been a while, so I don't remember how to do it. If I can figure it out again, I can share directions on how to do it, here, and perhaps MatC might be willing to load the pics of the rudder for us on this thread. :)
I don't do FB either. Here's the instructions for posting photos. Currently, individual file size is limited to 250 KB, but that's huge, and requires scrolling to see the full photo. 80 KB or so is plenty.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=9472.0
If you're a Mac user like me, Preview allows you to resize photos easily. I usually just set the largest dimension to 700 pixels.
On our (older) PC we resize pix in Microsoft Picture Manager. Hopefully that user-friendly program is still around; open in Picture Manager, go to Edit Pictures then Compress Pictures under Change Picture Size (on the right side of frame) for several options.
I use Win-10 Pro, and XNview for pix editing, etc. I found the stuff Bruce posted by looking in the archives last nite. Tried a cupla things in the 'test' area. Will make things 700 pixels in longest dim. and hopefully remember all when needed :-\ thanks to all
Your second test photo looks good. The first being a 273.92 KB JPG "big sized" (?). The second, a 851.33 KB PNG, but smaller dimensions (?), is better. JPG and PNG are both reportedly supported.
Not sure why the 851.33 KB file was accepted, with a 250 KB limit. I usually post JPG. Some have reported problems with JPEG. iPhone photos typically are HEIC, which causes problems. Converted to JPG they work fine.
Went out for a sail this week with 10 - 15 kts of wind and was able to tack each time without ending up in irons - barely. With boat speed of 5 kts while sailing on a beam reach the only way I avoided irons was by backwinding the jib and even at that she barely made it through the tack. The turned stalled enough before backwinding the jib that it flogged enough that the jib sheet would end up hanging up on the gin pole pin. As much as I like the gin pole arrangement for raising the mast the pin is a royal pain while sailing.
I'm leaning even more to thinking the problem is the rudder. I noticed that even at 5kts boat speed the rudder is very "mushy" feeling compared to other boats I've owned and boat response was much slower than I would expect for the amount of rudder applied and felt as much a brake as a rudder.
I may just bite the bullet over the winter and replace it with a ruddercraft rudder and see how that works.
Fred
For hanging up on the gin pole stub, one trick is to take your unused jib halyard and run it behind the cleat on the mast down to the bracket in front of the front hatch and keep it taut. That gets the jib sheets to ride over without snagging the stub.
Fred, I'll post here only because I have experienced the type of rudder feel you describe: Mushy, especially at speed, and not as effective as I expected.
The problem was the kick-up rudder was pivoting up in the wash starting at about 3-4 kts if I hadn't tighten the pivot bolt adequately. Rather than lean over the transom (bad design), I installed a DIY hold down device that works well, if I remember to set the clamp at the tiller to the right tightness (enough to hold the rudder down but still allow it to kick up). If I don't, the rudder will pivot up and get mushy.
Looking at photos, I see many, if not all Eclipses, have the Com-Pac foiled rudder and rudder control arm. If you have that set up, and the control arm is doing its job, then I guess that's not it.
Just a little comment on the rudder position. If you drop the rudder all the way down the tang on the rudder rod should be a snug fit under the hold down. If you have play then the rudder can float up and perhaps that is your mushy feel. If the rudder has hit anything and kicked up, the rod might be bent a bit. It needs to lock the rudder down and the welded square on it fit into the rudder cheek plates. To be able to do both it needs to be almost perfectly straight. Sail on, Al
Quote from: Fastdoc98 on August 28, 2022, 09:08:14 AM
For hanging up on the gin pole stub, one trick is to take your unused jib halyard and run it behind the cleat on the mast down to the bracket in front of the front hatch and keep it taut. That gets the jib sheets to ride over without snagging the stub.
Thanks for the tip, would have never thought about doing that.
Fred
Quote from: bruce on August 28, 2022, 11:11:53 AM
The problem was the kick-up rudder was pivoting up in the wash starting at about 3-4 kts if I hadn't tighten the pivot bolt adequately.
I've experienced that on my 23. It also added a lot of pressure to the tiller when it pivot up some.
Fred
Quote from: alsantini on August 28, 2022, 11:36:53 PM
Just a little comment on the rudder position. If you drop the rudder all the way down the tang on the rudder rod should be a snug fit under the hold down.
The rudder was all the way down and the rudder control rod is quite snug when fitted under the hold down.
Fred
Sorry to hear you're still having issues. Have been out a few times lately and never the slightest problem tacking in winds from almost zero up to about 15knts. I do find speed and groove of the boat is sensitive to fore and aft trim, and the mast rake issue might be really hurting you there. On the other hand, in my experience, a sloop will never really sail well into the wind under jib alone, so in a way, though I've never tried it, I'm not overly surprised.
I keep feeling something else must be wrong though. I always have plenty of forward momentum by the way and don't have the feeling the boat is light.
Mainly I'm posting though just to try to get Mat's picture up here for you and others who were interested.
Fred. Not to run this into the ground but yesterday I was out sailing and I paid attention to exactly how I tack the Eclipse. I had the advantage of strong winds 18+ at one end and 3-5 at the other. I had one reef in the main and 50% of the Genoa out. I was able to tack at both ends of the Lake although my procedure varied. Both my centerboard and rudder were all the down, and I was having fun!! At the high wind end, I turned into the wind moving the rudder all the way to the coamings almost as fast as I could move the tiller. I popped the Genoa sheets. Returned the rudder to a neutral position and re-set the genoa. Process took around 6 seconds. At the low wind end of the Lake I did the same rudder action but left the genoa sheet cleated so the wind would push the bow through the tack. Prior to tacking I picked up speed. Process took around 15 seconds. When I was done sailing I dropped the main, and sailed with full Genoa just to see if I could tack easily. No go! I could almost tack in the high wind side of the Lake but could only jibe in low winds. I don't think any boat will have good control with just the genoa or jib. I have a Catalina 14.2 also and sailing with the just the jib does not work. Your other comment about the rudder being mushy. I tried to concentrate on rudder feel yesterday. My boat steers like a dream. I sail with a very light touch on the tiller and when tacking I leave the tiller at the coamings and it stays there until I bring it a mid ships. Question - have you verified that the mast is plumb. When I bought off the wind I stepped the mast in the driveway and it did not look correct. Angled aft. So, I went to a flat parking lot, leveled the boat and stepped the mast. It took close to 10 turns on the side stays to get the mast basically neutral. I did not sail it with the mast angled aft so I have no idea how it would handle. Now, with the mast plumb and stays adjusted with a loos gauge, the boat has a neutral helm. Have any of the other Eclipse sailors here checked or adjusted the mast rake? I also wonder if the mast stub through the cabin is plumb. I have never checked it, but I will next time I am at the boat. Sail On Al
Thx Al.
The mast is definitely raked forward. I called compac and talked to Gerry today and he told me the mast is raked forward so that it is plumb or slightly raked aft when the weight of 1 or 2 adults is added to the cockpit. He also has no idea why the boat doesn't tack. The helm does balance nicely and rounds up when hit with a gust.
He did say that adding a shackle between the stem head and furler would move the mast aft a bit and thereby add a bit of weather helm which might make tacking easier.
I've tried moving the tiller slowly as well as quickly and it doesn't appear to make any difference. I'm going to add a d-shackle to the furler next spring and see if it helps. If it doesn't I think I'll try going to a larger rudder blade.
I've always been able to tack with my other boats even when sailing with just the jib but I've always had a 150 or 155 genoa on the other boats so the helm would balance better with the larger sail.
We just brought the boat home last week (the marina closes the day after labor day) and its in the pole barn for the winter now so I won't know anything more until next spring.
Fred
I added a 2" long d-shackle between the stemhead and the furler drum this spring. The mast is now almost vertical with just a very slight lean aft compared to the original pronounced lean forward. Took her out for the first sail of the season this week and actually was able to tack without ending up in irons!!
The boat still tacks VERY slowly compared to any other boat I've sailed but at least it does tack now.
Fred
hate to say this but i dont think i ever put my catalina 18 in irons. it does have a pretty deep foiled rudder which i think helps. i rarely backwind the jib as my wife trimming the jib forgets to. my old 16 got caught in irons pretty much until i put a ruddercraft rudder on it. maybe its a problem with the small jib and main with lots of roach. i did sail and eclipse once and dont remember having a problem. she sailed well as i recall.
I've added another inch (total 3 inch extension) to the forestay, increasing the mast aft rake a bit more and the boat tacks even better.
I'm curious as to what fellow eclipse owners do to prevent the jib sheets from getting hooked up on the pin for gin pole on the mast. I didn't have much trouble with that when I needed to backwind the jib to prevent irons while tacking but now that I don't need to do that the jib sheet has hooked on the pin nearly every tack.
To prevent the jib sheets from getting hung up on the pin and hinge it's very simple. Take the end of the jib halyard, which is used for mast raising, run it behind the horn clean on the port side of the mast, then forward and tie off to the bow cleat to form a triangle with the mast/deck/and halyard line. Tighten it at the coach roof cleat. The jib clew and sheets will just float right over it.
Well that's just way to simple! Thanks for the tip.
Fred