Ahoy, Sailors!
I am relatively new to the forums, and this is my first time posting. I bought an '87 CP-16 in July 2019 in Kenosha, WI and trailered her home to Chassell, MI. I cleaned her out, ran a fan to circulate the air and dry her out, and covered her with a tarp for the rest of the summer. In the early fall, I moved her into the garage, where she sat most of the winter. Over the Christmas break, I removed the bumper rail cover and cut the deck from the hull. I also began slowly removing hardware fittings. Then, she sat while we focused on the skiing season.
In the last couple weeks, the ski season has ended and it was warm enough for me to start working comfortably in the garage. With social-distancing, I could not enlist any more help than my 10 year-old son. So, I had to figure a way to lift the deck off of the hull by myself. I used simple ratchet straps from the cleats (which I purposely left) to the rafters.
I was surprised by the amount of water and moisture I found everywhere. Once I started removing the berths, I found nothing but rot and a few inches of wet play sand underneath the glassed cabin sole. Even as I began drilling and busting out the concrete ballast, I found a lot of moisture all the way down the keel. I am not completely finished yet, but I would guess I am almost halfway. I am attaching a couple of photos. You can see where I drilled into the concrete, I pulled up a wet slurry.
I almost forgot, I purchased lead ingots and shot, which I had delivered over the winter. I plan to set that in the bottom of the keel and encapsulate it in resin. That will leave a bilge for water to collect in the future, under the cabin sole.
Anyhow, tell me what you think. I am having a lot of fun!
Robert
It looks like you have a good handle on it. A couple of times I have been tempted to remove the cement ballast and replace it with lead and 2 house batteries.
I would definitely remove ALL the cement, dry it out completely, and then as you said, mix the lead with epoxy and pour it all in together. Now if by some horror, the keel is compromised, water shouldn't come in.
While you're removing the ballast, make sure the trailer bunks are taking the full load of the boat. As designed, the bunks only keep the boat upright and the load is on the keel. (but you know this as the trailer is a "Hutch" ;) ) Removal of the ballast will weaken the vertical walls of the keel and it could be damaged by the weight of the hull as you work on it.
Good luck, have fun, and keep us informed on your progress.
Cheers, Carl! Here she is when I first brought her home. And, a couple more photos.
Hi Robert and welcome to the zany group of Compac-o-nauts! You're doing a great job!
Did anyone mention the initiation fees that are required to join? I didn't think so. I'm the self proclaimed collector of the fees but you are in luck! Normally, I need $5000.00 in small unmarked bills left in a plain brown paper bag on the corner of 5th and Main streets. But today is your lucky day! If you're willing to perform the same keel magic on three of the old members boats, I can be persuaded to...ah, look the other way shall we say?
PM me your address...I'll drive my 23 to your house tomorrow! Thanks...you're a great guy to offer!
Cheers!
Bob23
Quote from: Bob23 on April 15, 2020, 07:17:38 PM
Hi Robert and welcome to the zany group of Compac-o-nauts! You're doing a great job!
Did anyone mention the initiation fees that are required to join? I didn't think so. I'm the self proclaimed collector of the fees but you are in luck! Normally, I need $5000.00 in small unmarked bills left in a plain brown paper bag on the corner of 5th and Main streets. But today is your lucky day! If you're willing to perform the same keel magic on three of the old members boats, I can be persuaded to...ah, look the other way shall we say?
PM me your address...I'll drive my 23 to your house tomorrow! Thanks...you're a great guy to offer!
Cheers!
Bob23
Well there is inflation for you. I am pretty sure when I joined, not more than a few years back, you could get in with a properly delivered 6-pack of PBR.
Properly delivered as in an Enema?
TG
They say you don't get a hangover that way....
But doesn't it depend on just where your head is?
Ahoy, Bob!
Thanks for the warm welcome and the attractive terms of initiation! I'll be happy to help you out with the 23, but you'll have to bring her to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. We got quite a bit of snow after Easter, and, although it is sunny days now the the storm has passed, there is still a wicked wind off of the lake. If the sun warms up my garage a bit more today, I may go out and bust some more concrete.
For anyone considering this, I find it easiest to simply use a maul and chisel. I tried using the hammer drill, as you can see from some of my photos, but that didn't help much. I have an air chisel, but I have found it satisfying to pound it out by hand. A couple buckets full a day feels like good progress.
Cheers!
Robert
Robert: I'm leaving now...should be there by...well, whenever this bloody quarantine is over! Thank you...I'll be there and the PBR is on me!
You are doing a fine job. Lots of work but should be very rewarding when you get to sail. Are you adding more weight to increase the displacement or just placing the weight lower in the keel?
Cheers!
Bob23
Ahoy, Bob and others!
So, things warmed up yesterday, and I went out to the garage to begin chipping away again. What I found surprised me. I sail with a guy, who has a CP-16, and he swears there is lead in the keel from the factory. But, from what I read on the forums, it seems that Com-Pac only used concrete. I am sure there are many variations in boat building, particularly over the years, so there may be many truths. What I found is lots of scrap metal and used wheel weights in the bottom of the keel. That would make sense, since most tire shops are happy to give away the used wheel weights, particularly if the price of lead is relatively low. So, this is what I found in my keel.
By the way, to answer your earlier question, I purchased 450 lbs of lead ingots of various sizes and shot. I have about 250 lbs of lead shot, and the rest are 2.5, 5, and 10 lb. ingots. N.B. a 10 lb. ingot of lead is pretty small! I will place the ingots on the bottom and towards the front of the keel, and fill in the rest with shot and epoxy slurry. I did some calculations on paper with an estimate of the volume within the keel. Given that lead is 5X more dense than concrete, on average, the ballast should all be within the bottom 3 - 4 inches. Obviously, my calculations over the winter did not factor in the scrap lead and metal that was thrown in at the factory. I will weigh that out in the end, as I am separating it to not throw it in my garden. Lead is 750 lbs per cubic foot and concrete varies, depending largely on the aggregate used, but averages about 150 lbs per cubic foot.
Anyhow, here it is.
Hutch,
Why re-invent the wheel. While you have some time before you go back in with your ballast, Give Gerry at Com-Pac a call and ask for his recommendation regarding your plan. He may recommend re-enforcing the keel with x inches of glass woven roving and resin to strengthen the structure. The concrete gave an enormous amount of lateral strength to the keel that your plan may not replace. (if it were me I'd ask about adding a swing keel, ala the Legacy)
just MHO, TG
Ahoy, TG!
Don't you think it would have been funnier to say, "why re-invent the keel", instead? Thank you for your reply and your thoughts.
I spoke with Gerry's brother, when I ordered a few parts for the boat. He was a very funny guy. He was happy to hear about my purchase, and he told me: "we built about 3,000 of those boats, but when I go to boat shows, I'd swear it was more like 30,000 by the number of people who tell me they have owned one." They didn't give me a "Hutch Discount" though. I did ask. Anyhow, next time I call I may ask him what he thinks of my plans. But, I am not overly concerned.
Cement is purely chosen for cost reasons. It is cheap ballast. And, when you see the photos below of what else I am finding in the keel, you will know that cost was absolutely the prime factor, and that it added very little to the structural integrity of the keel. In fact, I find that the last 8 inches are the easiest to pound out, and I can almost just chip it out by hand without the force of the maul. The scrap wheel weights include everything you expect to accumulate by the side of a tire balancing machine (I know, because I have one of these in my other garage). It is also full of used valve stems and Schrader valves. I have found chunks of rubber from tire beads and bead sealant. I have found utility knife blades and rusted nails pulled from tires. The funny thing is that it smells just like a tire shop too. It reminded me of my favorite job, when I was 16, at Schneider's Tire and Auto in Toledo, OH. That was a great summer, and I worked a lot of hours repairing tires.
Anyhow, I'm not a trained boatwright and I am learning as I go along. I may be making a big mistake, but, from what I see first hand, that keel is very thick and strong. That is the real quality of the Com-Pac construction. I have no doubt that it was doing all the work, and the concrete was nothing more than ballast, at least in my boat for these past few decades. Although you cannot feel what I felt from the pictures, that concrete was very loose, more like wet play sand, and naturally does not bind to the glass resin anyhow. Again, if it were structurally important, I doubt they would have haphazardly thrown in the scrap heap from a local tire shop. My opinion is that it serves nothing more than a cheap source of mass.
The swing keel idea is interesting, and I had not thought about that. One of the reasons I bought this boat, was the shoal draft and fixed keel. I did not want to be dealing with the mechanical issues that invariably come up with swing keels. Within my price range and project scope, every boat that I looked at with a swing keel had major problems. In most cases, these swing keels were cast iron or laminated steel sheets welded together with glass over them. In all cases, they looked ugly! I think the Com-Pac used a stainless steel swing keel though, which would largely take care of the corrosion issue. I will ponder that a little more.
In the mean time, I will continue with my plan, as I had envisioned it. I have some other improvements in mind to strengthen the hull, including G10 backing plates behind all the fittings. I'll see how things look in the keel when I get to that point. I have much to do before then, including fairing, painting, etc. I also have work on the deck, including fixing a couple of ugly repairs that were done in the past.
Cheers!
Robert
Okay, I removed the last bucket of concrete. The bottom 8 inches was the easiest to break out, as it had the lead wheel weights (and other things) thrown in. It came out easy and fast. I am going to relax a little and think about my next step. I took some measurements, to get some ideas for boxing in a marine battery.
Cheers!
Robert
Is that last pic of the widest part of the keel? You may need to double up on 6 volt golf cart batteries to fit.
The valve stems are nice touch, a little bit of resiliency. A least you didn't find soda cans!
I worked a couple of fall seasons at a tire shop, back when everyone mounted snow tires seasonally. My friend, the bosses son, dropped a GTO on it's belly as I removed the RR wheel. We were using a hydraulic bumper lift, bumpers being structural back then, and the car's bumper slipped off the lift and the lift slammed into the wall next to my head. Nobody was hurt, not so sure about the car. I was glad it was him and not me!
Hello, Bruce and Carl!
I also found a brake cylinder, a lug nut, and a decorative lug cover. But, no soda cans! By the way, I live in the snowiest part of the entire United States. We average 360" of snow in the Keweenaw every winter, so snow tires are still very necessary up here. I don't often change them though, since it is easier to simply keep a separate set of wheels and tires. I still haven't swapped them out yet, as we just got a small dusting of snow last night and the lake is still frozen. Last week, when you guys were getting hit on the East Coast, we got another 12" of snow!
I was always mechanically oriented, since I was young and started taking things apart: the Bell telephone, lawnmower, etc. I didn't always figure out how to put them back together then, much to the chagrin of my father. By the time I was 14, I was fully motorized and mobile with my moped license. I had a piece of junk 70s Motobecante, which required I take a set of tools with me to take her apart and make adjustments on the road. I didn't care, because I found freedom.
I made a lot of mistakes working at that shop over the summer, but what I learned was that we could bill the customer for the extra time it took to fix my mistakes! I also learned that anything could be fixed, it just took extra time. The first time I snapped a bolt in a transmission housing, I thought the manager would kill me. He was such a nice guy, never got upset, and taught me to drill and tap. He then told me that we would just bill for the extra time! It was a win-win! Plus, it wasn't a GTO that I screwed up either! Anyhow, this made me confident in fixing anything, even if I don't really know what I'm doing. You are seeing this unfolding now, as I just began sailing three years ago, and this is my first real boat!
My uncle always wanted to teach me to sail, but it never seemed to work out that I could spend a few days at his house, other than for large family get-togethers. When he passed away, he left me a couple of Sunfish from his fleet. He loved Sunfish, and always said that it was the purest form of sailing. Anyhow, I live on a lake, so I trailered them home, and I began sailing. I was hooked immediately! I remember the moment, going slowly along with the sail luffing, when I pulled the mainsheet tight and took off. It felt like I just stepped on the accelerator! From then on, all I do is read about sailing, magazines and books. I have also studied a lot sailing dynamics and mathematics, as I am a professor with a PhD in engineering. It comes as nature to me to read a lot of books, write a couple, and then give it a try!
I have made up for my lack of previous experience by sailing as often as I could the past three summers; at least twice a week. This was after I had read a couple of books on the subject, including the Sunfish Bible, which my uncle also left for me. That is a great book to learn sailing dynamics, because many of the articles are written by competitive sailors and world champions. Last summer, I started sailing weekly with a colleague who owns a CP-16, so I finally learned to use a headsail (after reading about it) and developed an appreciation for the CP-16. Anyhow, here I am.
To answer Carl's question, that is the very widest point at the bottom of the keel. It doesn't taper off though till much further fore and aft. Also, it widens to 9" at the very top of the keel, 12" deep. I figure the lead and epoxy resin will take up about 3" along the bottom, maybe a little more if I glass over it a bit, just out of caution to Tim's point from the other day. Even then, I should have enough room to box and glass-in a standard 22nf marine battery, which is 5.5" wide, 12" long, and around 9" tall. That is another 40lbs of lead weight that I can put in the keel and below the waterline. Before, it was mounted up front, above the waterline, which made it counter ballast.
Cheers fellas!
Robert
Hutch!
From my experience, a few cases of PBR could be an excellent ballast/stabilizer, as PBR contains all kinds of exotic additives!
Welcome to the Forum!
Wayne J
Ahoy, Wayne!
I have a lot of time to post this weekend, because it is the second day in a row that it is snowing here in the Keweenaw Peninsula! I am sure the weather is much nicer in VA, now that the storms have passed.
I'm not quite sure about the love of PBR I am feeling on this forum. I definitely remember Pabst Blue Ribbon, back in the day when it was really Pabst. My grandmother bought it occasionally, and I certainly remember the jingle from the commercials, "I demand real true blue flavor!" We are really part of Northern Wisconsin, here in the Upper Peninsula. So, you know that there are much better beers than PBR. But, for ballast, it may have some value...
Anyhow, I weighed the bucket of wheel weights, and it was about 45 lbs.
Cheers!
Robert
Well, in case you are interested, here is my daily update. What didn't surprise me, at this point, is the amount of water trapped under the fore deck in the cabin and the amount of rot on the bulkhead compression box. I debated ripping this out, but I felt justified when I saw the rot, mold, and water.
Ahoy, sailors!
Okay. It was a beautiful day today, and I had a lot of other things to do, but I did get a little time at the end of the day to flip the hull over and begin stripping the bottom paint. My son was able to help me with this, as it really is not an east one person job. I let him do the heavy lifting.
Getting a closer look at the keel, I can see some chips and gouges in the gelcoat that I hadn't seen before. I will fix those before I repaint the bottom. Any suggestions or thoughts about a barrier coat? I guess I should probably see what I am working with first.
By the way, I put it on a lighter trailer I have for my Sunfish sailboats. I cut a couple of 2X4 braces across the bottom and screwed them to the hull lip to stabilize it.
Cheers!
Robert
She's gonna be a whole new boat. Dang near literally.
Robert: you're doing a great and thorough job! Years ago there was discussion here about doing a keel cap in copper both for protection for the fiberglass and also a guard against the growth of barnacles. I'm not sure you sail in salt water so this could be a moot point.
Bob23
Ahoy, Bob!
Thanks for the positive feedback and encouragement; I really appreciate it. And, I like this idea of a copper cap on the keel. I stripped off the majority of the bottom paint, and I found some epoxy repairs that had been made already. I don't sail in salt water, but I don't want to limit myself either. I have a dream to sail to Norway from my home in Chassell, across the North Atlantic, and spend a year sabbatical in Trondheim, where I have close family. After a year, I would sail back. I am a professor, so I could use my sabbatical year, take all summer both ways. I wasn't thinking of doing it in a CP-16 though. My idea would be more like a Pacific Seacraft Flicka or maybe a Halman 20.
Cheers!
Robert
P.S. I am stripping it one more time to get the rest of the bottom paint off.
Funny you'd mention a Flicka. I was (and still am) considering one up in MA. I spent a weekend going over her and all I needed to do was hear the Yanmar run. Then this dang virus showed up and no travel from NJ to MA. It's still on the dream board though!
Cheers! Bob23
Ahoy, Bob!
Yes, I think the Flicka is a beautiful boat, and all you need to sail around the world! I think that the market is going to be good for boats and cars. I am very much a petrol head as well, and own a '72 MG Midget in tip-top condition. Not that the Midget is worth much, but I am always watching the classic car market. At the top end, it already appeared to have peaked. But, the bottom end was still pretty crazy, with $20K+ for a Porsche 914 or $10K+ for a 944, only because regular Joes cannot afford to buy a 911 these days. Anyhow, the good news is that the Flicka will probably still be there after this passes.
I saw a nice Flicka on Lake Ontario east of Toronto. You could sail her down to Buffalo and take the Erie Canal all the way to NYC. A couple of summers ago, I met a family from Boston that bought a large boat (I don't remember what it was) and sailed her from the Apostle Islands in Minnesota back to Boston. They were going to take St. Laurence Seaway back. Their diesel engine needed some repairs, so they came into Houghton, MI (where I live) and made repairs. It was fun seeing them for those few days, while they were waiting for parts to arrive. Anyhow, you could make a nice trip out of it!
Cheers!
Robert
Hi Robert...I'm also a gear head. I was involved in foreign car repair way back when foreign cars was still a real thing. Today it's blurred.
I have a very rare one-off collaboration between Porsche and Toyota. Not many people have heard of this or even are aware that yes, the joined together in 1993 and built only one car, the very same one I own. Of course there are those skeptics who say I simply took a 1993 Camry Wagon and adorned it with Porsche stickers...but you know me better than that, don't you!
My very favorite cars include the Cittoen DS, AC Cobra (who wouldn't love one of those! My marina owner has a real one!) the Volvo P1800 wagon and of course a 1967 Karmann Ghia convertible. None of which I've ever owned, by the way.
The Flicka is still available...the Admiral has threatened to throw me out if I buy her. Good thing she's got standing headroom!
Cheers!
Bob23
Hey, Bob!
That is very interesting. I'd like to know more about that car. In the early 90s, Toyota was helping to save a lot of sports car manufacturers. Lotus, always on the verge of extinction, needed an engine deal, but didn't really have the cash. Toyota wanted a mid-engine sports car, so Lotus helped them on the design for the MR2, the "poor man's Ferrari 308". My dream exotic car is a little more attainable, and that would be a Lotus Elise.
I also like the first generation Lotus Esprit, only because it debuted in The Spy Who Loved Me with Roger Moore when I was a kid. There is a very cool story about that. Colin Chapman, who like always was broke, needed free advertising for the new car. He found out about shooting at Pinewood Studios and parked the prototype outside on the street when he knew that Broccoli and others would be there. When they came out, saw the unmarked car, they went crazy trying to find out who made it. When they were tipped off, they had to have it. So, they came to Colin, who had the advantage in negotiations. Another funny story, Sir Roger Moore asked for the road car (not the submarine version) after shooting. Colin told him he'd have to pay full price, so he walked away!
Anyhow, I saw a beautiful looking Flicka on sailboatlistings.com this morning. Also, a Nordica 20 with BMW diesel inboard, the "poor man's Flicka", as it was called in its review in Small Craft Advisor. This particular boat has been for sale for many years now, not too far from my home in the Keweenaw, on Lake Superior near Duluth. That is an interesting boat. The hull was made in two pieces, but with the joint running fore and aft along the keel line. It was shipped from Europe to Canada for final assembly. There are two things wrong with this boat in Duluth: the owner painted it an ugly color and at $10K they are asking double what these boats typically sell for. When people say "rare" in their advertisement, I say it was rare for a reason, no one bought them new!
Bob, if you are an open wheel and sports car racing fan, then it appears we were separated at birth somehow.
Apologies to everyone else who doesn't care about cars. Back to my CP-16, I have found some widespread blistering along the hull bottom, along with a few more ugly epoxy repairs along the keel bottom. I put one more coat of stripper and covered with plastic, and this should be enough to have removed all the bottom paint. I went ahead and ordered some epoxy barrier coat, which I will put on before the bottom paint. First, I will make some epoxy repairs to the gouges, chips, and larger blisters that have opened more. Then I will lightly sand the gelcoat before applying the barrier coat.
By the way, for anyone who wants to know. I did not use any heavy duty aircraft stripper. This was the very pleasant smelling Citrustrip, which you can buy at Walmart in the paint isle. The best way to do it is like I did it, flip your hull over and cover it in plastic to let it do its job over night. Obviously, that involved some other work as well. But, I think you could still roller the stripper gel on to the bottom, and use plastic wrap to cover it. I did it by myself, with a large industrial roll of packing wrap (also from Walmart). Once I laid down a foot or more on the gel, smoothing it out, the suction force held it down and I could pull the roll out along the hull. Once you get a few overlapping rows, the plastic clings to itself, making it easier. I think you could probably do this on the trailer without it falling off. That allows the gel to really soak into the old bottom paint.
Also, one more tip, I originally started scraping with my metal scraper. That was fine, but always left streaks of gel and paint. When I went to Walmart to pick up one more quart of Citrustrip, I also bought a large, cheap plastic scraper for $1. That was the best, as it contours to the hull shape better.
I'll post up more photos soon.
Cheers!
Robert
Ahoy, Sailors!
Okay. This is after three times stripping. I still have some bottom paint left in a few places, but I should be able to get it with the little bit of Citrustrip left over. I used straight acetone to wipe off all the residual. I am including a few photos of damage to the keel, some previous epoxy repairs, and you can see the blistering, particularly aft. I will begin sanding when the weather improves, grind out some of the gouges that still have paint in them, patch everything with epoxy, and then apply a two part epoxy barrier coat before the final bottom paint.
My plan, right now, is to get all that done, get her upright in the trailer again, and then begin working on the inside of the hull.
Cheers!
Robert
Hi Hutch,
Ok, now I have questions. I'm about to get started on my 19's bottom. This is the first I've seen of someone using stripper on a bottom as opposed to sanding it off. I like the idea of not having all that airborne dust and if this stuff is chemical friendly it sounds wonderful. How much citrustrip did you need to treat 3x? What are the negatives to this method?
Hello, Keith!
I only needed two quarts of the Citrustrip. It is much easier than sanding, because that ablative paint is already very soft. You would likely go through a lot of sanding discs, as they would probably gunk up really fast. You will want to keep a small bucket as you are scraping, to clean your scraper. The gel and softened paint really comes off thick. Afterwards, I used a lot of old rags when wiping it down with acetone. Now, I can be much more careful about sanding, as I am already down to the gelcoat.
Don't forget, I covered it in plastic wrap and let is sit overnight, which helped. Also, I didn't put it on too thick.
Good luck, and I'm glad I could help!
Robert
If you have ablative bottom paint on your 19, pressure washing will remove it lickety-split. Just be aware of where the run-off goes.
TG
Tim is it wrong that my first thought was a do it yourself car wash? They have to filter the water right?
Quote from: Tim Gardner on May 01, 2020, 05:12:50 PM
If you have ablative bottom paint on your 19, pressure washing will remove it lickety-split. Just be aware of where the run-off goes.
TG
i'll second this. i power washed the bottom paint off our 19 and it ran into the grass. couldn't grown grass there for 2 years. :-\
Ahoy, sailors!
Well, I have been busy the past few weeks working on the house and garden. I hadn't done anything more than move the hull in and out of the garage everyday, so I had room for other projects. Today, I got busy grinding out some of the old, ugly repairs on the keel and hull. It had sustained some significant damage at some point, but was largely concealed by several layers of bottom paint. Unfortunately, I forgot about the first rule of safety when operating power tools. You can see I took a chunk out of my finger tip as well.
I plan to continue working this week, since the weather is beautiful in the U.P.
Cheers!
Robert
Okay, so I got a little more work done today. I used the Dremel rotary tool today to touch up some of the grinding, and to grind out some of the blisters. The blisters were never repaired, and a couple layers of bottom paint was put on over them. The problem is the paint was absorbed into to blisters, so I had to grind out the worst of them. I ended up with quite a lot more in epoxy repairs than I had originally hoped, but I think it will work out. There was so much cracking and blistering on the keel, that I ended up grinding out a lot of the cracks and blisters and simply epoxying over it all. We'll see how it works out, after it cures for a day or two and I start sanding it down.
Quote from: Hutch on June 04, 2020, 07:18:26 PM
Okay, so I got a little more work done today. I used the Dremel rotary tool today to touch up some of the grinding, and to grind out some of the blisters. The blisters were never repaired, and a couple layers of bottom paint was put on over them. The problem is the paint was absorbed into to blisters, so I had to grind out the worst of them. I ended up with quite a lot more in epoxy repairs than I had originally hoped, but I think it will work out. There was so much cracking and blistering on the keel, that I ended up grinding out a lot of the cracks and blisters and simply epoxying over it all. We'll see how it works out, after it cures for a day or two and I start sanding it down.
Looks like a lot of work but it will be worth it. I had some cracks (about 3-4") on the front of my keel. I started grinding them out down do the fiberglass. I noticed the cracks appeared to go into the fiberglass as well so I ground farther and am now down to about 5" square area of exposed cement. I'll have to lay glass and epoxy to fix. I'm sort of wondering if I should have just done it like you did and just ground out the cracks in the paint and gelcoat and then epoxied over it. Oh well, no going back now. Good luck.
Ahoy, In the Pocket!
You might consider going all the way. It would be easier to lay up the glass by starting inside the keel, once you remove the concrete. You can lay in some strand mat, and once than cures, you will have a solid backing for doing the repair on the outside. I know, it is easy to tell you to rip apart your boat.
It was always my intention to take on a project, so I am happy to do it this way. The fiberglass below my gelcoat was all solid. From what I saw of the cracking and what came off easily, there were two issues going. At one point, it looks like someone had run her up onto something hard, some rocks or concrete, that made the long gashes along the fore and along the bottom and side of the keel. Also, there was a lot of blistering, which was never addressed properly. Instead, they simply put bottom paint over it to cover it. The paint migrated into the cracks and blisters. There were some that I ground out with the Dremel, and I found red bottom paint underneath. So the paint was between the glass and gelcoat layer. Over time, some of these pockets worsened, probably holding water and freezing/ thawing. If you see the beginning of my post, this boat hadn't been in the water for well over a year, and she had been stored in my garage, yet the concrete was all damp throughout.
So, I sanded the epoxy repairs yesterday, fairing them into the hull. I had a couple of low spots, where the epoxy had filled into the voids, so I had to go over them again with another layer. I sanded them a little by hand to rough them up, wiped it down with acetone, and put on the second layer. It is probably going to rain for the next couple days, and I plan to go sailing on my Sunfish with a colleague on Monday, so I am not sure I will make much more progress for the next couple days.
Cheers!
Robert
Quote from: Hutch on June 06, 2020, 09:59:16 AM
Ahoy, In the Pocket!
You might consider going all the way. It would be easier to lay up the glass by starting inside the keel, once you remove the concrete. You can lay in some strand mat, and once than cures, you will have a solid backing for doing the repair on the outside. I know, it is easy to tell you to rip apart your boat.
I think I'm past that point. I just resealed the hull/deck joint (getting those rub rails back on was a son of a bitch) and the keel cement seems mostly in tact except for the one area I had to grind out and even that seemed to just be split fiberglass. The cement underneath was solid. I subscribe to the philosophy of "perfect is the enemy of good enough." In this case, perfect is the enemy of me actually sailing this summer. Ha!
Ahoy, In-the-Pocket!
What did you use to re-bond the deck and hull? Did you use sealant (like 3M 5200) or did you use epoxy? Did you use bolts or pop rivets? Can you update your post with pictures?
Don't worry, I will still get plenty of sailing in this summer on my Sunfish. I don't feel pressure to move quickly on this project. One of my favorite more line by (Tom, I think) Seizmore from the movie Heat was, "For me the action is the juice". I just love having projects in process.
Cheers!
Robert
Quote from: Hutch on June 13, 2020, 09:41:45 AM
Ahoy, In-the-Pocket!
What did you use to re-bond the deck and hull? Did you use sealant (like 3M 5200) or did you use epoxy? Did you use bolts or pop rivets? Can you update your post with pictures?
Don't worry, I will still get plenty of sailing in this summer on my Sunfish. I don't feel pressure to move quickly on this project. One of my favorite more line by (Tom, I think) Seizmore from the movie Heat was, "For me the action is the juice". I just love having projects in process.
Cheers!
Robert
Robert,
I have enjoyed working on the boat this summer. It was actually the perfect time for it given the state of the world and the shutdown. I had access to a Sunfish when I was younger. Fun little boats.
I used 3M 5200 (fast cure) to reseal the joint. I pulled off the rail, drilled out the 4 rivets holding the rail on and removed what was left of that tape the factor puts along the joint and used an air compressor and scraper to get old, loose glue out of the crack where I could. Then I went around with the 5200 filling larger voids left by the removal of the old adhesive. I let that cure and then I went around and coated the entire joint with the 5200 to attempt to completely seal any openings. After one rain I still noticed a bit of moisture on the stern corners inside the joint with my hand. Then I realized, the holes where the 4 rivets and the bolts that held the rail on were probably absorbing water which was finding its way in. So I took a toothpick and as best as I could, coated the inside of those holes with 5200. Also any rivet along the joint that looked like it may be water-compromised, I coated with 5200. You also want to check where the chainplates go through the joint. I was getting water in there too. I used butyl tape to shore of those gaps.
After it was all cured the process of putting the rails back on began. Not easy. As others have said, wait for a hot day to stretch the rubber easier. I did not reinstall rivets where I removed them, but instead used #10 screws and nuts. They fit well. I attached the starboard stern cap first, then stretched the transom rail guard and then the starboard rail guard. I could not stretch it all the way around the joint to the bow cap so what I did was lay the rub rail up over the coaming and onto the deck a little bit (if that makes sense) so I could get the bow end all the way to the front easier, "as the crow flies." I secured those screws at the bow cap and then went back and pulled the rubber down onto the rail . Much easier.
I tried uploading a pic but the site won't let me because of it's size. Good luck with yours. I'm really hoping it takes care of most of the rain leaks I was having. I've rebedded all the hardware and companionway hatch guides so it's as good as it's going to get.
Ahoy, Sailors!
It's been a while since I updated. A few weeks back we had a couple of really nice days in low 70s with low humidity, so I began epoxying the hull and barrier coating. I started early in the morning, so I could get it all done in one day. I put about five coats of epoxy total on the hull (3 on the keel and lower hull and then two more over all). I then followed with four coats total of barrier coating (two on the keel and lower hull and then two more over the entire boat). Then, it sat in my garage for a number of weeks as the weather was hot and humid. Instead, I worked on an outdoor pizza oven and some other projects like a rack for my Sunfish sailboats on the water. Anyhow, after two weeks straight of hot and humid, we finally have our glorious summer back in the U.P. That meant I could get out sailing on my Sunfish the past few days, and I had time to begin priming and sanding. It's starting to look good for a top coat of red! I would say Ferrari red, but after the past two weekends in Austria, I say prefer "fire engine red".
By the way, I bought the Interlux barrier coating, two quarts of grey and two of white. I did that to make it easier seeing what I had covered. I began applying while the epoxy was still tacky, so that I could get a good chemical bond between the epoxy barrier coat and the clear epoxy I put over the hull. If I were doing it again, I would have simply bought the barrier coat additive from West, because their epoxy is so easy to mix and use. Honestly, the Interlux product was a royal pain in my elbow (from mixing)!
Cheers!
Robert
That's looking great!
Howdy- despite saving pics as jpgs I still can?t get any to show up on my last post. Do you mind sharing how you accomplished this daunting task? Thanks and thanks for sharing your post!
Charles
Quote from: Hutch on April 15, 2020, 04:45:40 PM
Cheers, Carl! Here she is when I first brought her home. And, a couple more photos.
UpNorth,
I recently helped a SC owner with a similar problem. I sent you a PM that might help
Hey, Charles!
I have a Mac. I made a folder on my desktop for all my Com-Pac 16 photos. After I upload my photos to iPhoto, I then export them to this desktop folder and set the quality to "high" instead of the default, which is the full size. High seems to be the maximum quality that works with posting on this forum. I hope this helps.
Robert
Ahoy!
So, I have begun laying down the color. I have a two layer base coat, dry sanded it 220, and put the second coat on this morning. From here on out I will be wet sanding, working my way up with finer grit: 320, 400, 600, etc. I will see how it goes, but that is the plan for now.
In the meantime, we get have been getting plenty of sailing in on the Sunfish!
Cheers!
Robert
Ahoy, sailors!
I have been enjoying the summer and getting out a lot on the Sunfish. I had a small setback, when I started masking off the boot stripe and the paint hadn't fully cured. I suppose it is accurate to say that it had not adequately cured, because it needs roughly a month at 70 degrees and with low humidity to cure to ~98%. Anyhow, I was playing around with the boot stripe and I peeled up some of the paint from the hull. I cursed my haste, and spent a few days filling in, sanding, and then finally putting another coat on the entire hull. I waited a full week, with weather near 80 during the days, 60 at night, and relative low humidity. So, I taped off the boot stripe. My method was to set the bottom of the keel level, and then make a mobile jig (in the picture) with a sharpie, and started off the factory 28" from the deck joint at the bow. I simply walked it around as water always finds level. Anyhow, so far, so good.
Cheers!
Robert
Ahoy! It's been a while, and things are taking a little longer now that the weather is colder. Here is an update, now that I have unmasked my boot stripe. It looks good, and I will let it cure for at least a week, or longer, if I get some warmer weather. Afterwards, I plan to wet sand, polish, and finally put a coat of anti-foul wax on the bottom.
I will continue to update, but my progress will really depend on the weather in the next couple of months.
Cheers!
Robert
Ahoy!
Things are progressing slowly, but progressing nonetheless. I let the paint cure for a couple weeks, and now I have wet sanded and polished it out. I have to replace the keel rollers and bunk carpet on my trailer, which I am going to do before setting the hull back on top the trailer. Then I can begin replacing the wood on the interior, lead in the keel, painting, etc.
Cheers!
Robert
That looks amazing. Fiberglass skills like yours would certainly open a lot of doors for any sailor.
I like the white transom.. a very nice touch!
Bob23
Thank you, Bob!
I made a couple of updates to the trailer, new keel rollers and bunk carpeting. I have her back on the trailer now, and I laid out the lead I am going to set in the keel as ballast. I spoke with West System yesterday to discuss my project, and they advised that I could still set the lead in epoxy, using the fast setting (205) catalyst. We have a few more nice days in the 40s forecast here in the U.P. over the next week, and I will put a heater in the garage overnight to make sure that the hull doesn't get too cold. I will keep the epoxy and catalyst inside for a few days, to keep it at room temperature before I get ready to mix it with the lead shot.
By the way, in a few areas of the keel where the polyester resin was thin or void, the epoxy coating I put on the entire hull seeped through. It made me feel good about putting several coats of epoxy on the entire hull, followed by the barrier coats.
Ahoy, sailors!
I started setting the lead ballast into the keel this weekend. We had a couple of warmer days, and using a propane heater to warm up the garage, and an electric heater to help keep it warm, I began to set the ingots and lead shot. I kept the epoxy resin and catalyst indoors for a couple of days, so that it would be warm. Once I heated up the garage to about 60 degrees, I shut down the propane and kept the electric heater running. I started by coating the bottom of the keel with epoxy, and then I began setting the larger lead ingots (20 lbs) and medium sized (10 lbs) and filled in with other smaller sizes (2 lbs and 1/2 lbs). I then mixed epoxy with lead shot, into a slurry, which I used to fill in the the voids. I then set a second layer of ingots (pictured) and let that cure over night. Today, I went back out, and began filling in with epoxy and lead shot slurry. You can see how much lower the ballast now sits in the keel, which will lower the center of gravity and make a nice bilge for collecting water. It is setting up slowly in a 50 degree garage, but I will fill in with a final coat of epoxy and glass, so that I have a smooth bilge for collecting water.
Cheers!
Robert
More photos of the lead ballast in the keel.
A couple more photos.
Since the ballast is more dense and lower in the keel, did you reduce the total weight?
Hello, Renae.
I did not reduce the overall ballast. I had considered doing that, and glassing in a battery storage compartment in the keel, to add the weight of the lead-acid battery to the keel, but I decided against that. Having the ballast lower in the keel will increase the righting force and stability overall, but I did not want to change the overall displacement and how she sits in the water.
Thanks for asking!
Robert
Ahoy, Sailors!
So, I got some more work done. Four layers of glass laid over the lead ballast in the keel. I alternated chop strand mat and woven mat. Once this has cured, I will make some thickened epoxy and filets along the edge all along the inside of the keel.
Cheers!
Robert
What you're doing to that boat is amazing. I can't imagine undertaking such a bottom up rebuild, but you're killing it.
Ahoy, Sailors!
I took some good advice from Jim, who had a similar project, and couldn't get his hull and deck to align. I started working on the bulkheads and bunks, so I temporarily put the deck back onto the hull, without any issues. Now the next step will be to go in and do some of the glass work, tabbing and filleting the bulkheads and bunk boards to the hull. Once that is done and secure on the backsides, I will remove the deck again and finish glassing in the bunks and bulkheads. One step at a time. At least it looks like a boat again!
Robert
Here she starts to look like a boat again. My colleague and good friend helped me lowering the deck back onto the hull and aligning everything. I am using #8-32 2" stainless steel screws. Hopefully, I avoid the troubles that Jim had.
The ice is finally starting to move on the lake behind my house!
Cheers!
Robert
These bottom up rebuilds do impress me, although they inspire in me no desire to "go and do likewise".
Great job and heckuva result!
Thank you, Renae! I did not start out thinking I would be doing all this. It is really not as hard as it looks. It has been fun, and I do not feel any pressure to get it done. I work when I feel like it. Considering I only paid $750 for the boat, I do not feel bad about all the efforts. It's been a learning experience for me, and I could see taking on a larger project in the future.
So, my Easter day work was to start filleting the bulkhead in. I used West System epoxy with the silica thickener. It still wasn't what I wanted for filling in the gaps, so I started cutting up some chop strand mat, which really worked well for holding the epoxy in place. I have two alternating layers of mat and cloth over that. These pictures are the third layer of mat, before the final layer of cloth.
Cheers!
Robert
Ahoy, sailors!
It is still pretty cold in the U.P., but at least warm enough for epoxy work. I have been tabbing in the bunks and finished the bulkheads. I cut out the cover for the forward cavity, but I am going to fill that with two-part poly closed-cell foam first. Unfortunately, I will have to wait for 70 degrees, which may not happen for a while. In the mean time, I am going to work on some new G10 backing plates for the transom and the front hook/bobstay. I coated the forward cavity with epoxy in preparation for the foam.
Cheers!
Robert
A couple more photos:
Ahoy, Sailors!
The work continues, with the weather just on the verge of being uncooperative. It's just warm enough to do some epoxy work, but not warm enough for the two-part foam. But, I had a couple of other things to do, like cutting and setting G10 backing plates on the transom. I also removed the rotten wooden block forward on the bow. I cut a new block out of oak and will epoxy it in with a G10 backing plate behind it: extra strong.
Cheers!
Robert
Here's the wooden backing block at the bow. You can see that it wasn't doing much and allowed that bow hook to move and loosen. Once I get this epoxied in with the G10 backing plate, it won't loosen again.
Ahoy!
A few updates. The weather is getting warmer, and I have made some progress. I also started working on the Sunfish. I had to install two new inspection ports, fix the rotten wooden blocks that backed the cleat and fairlead, and installed some new hardware. This is my son's boat. I'll get to fixing my Sunfish later.
Robert
Ahoy, Sailors!
Okay, I finished the foam under the bunks. I hated this job, as that foam was messy when you cut it or sand it. I completed the forward cabin first, in the same manner, with two-part 6 lb closed cell foam all the way to the top and sanded. I then sealed it all with epoxy, and epoxied the deck on top.
Cheers!
Robert
Ahoy, Sailors!
Although I haven't posted in a while, I continue to make slow progress. I have now glassed in the bunks and the fo'c'sle. I still have to sand everything one more time and then do a couple of final coats of epoxy. I plan to keep the bunk tops and fo'c'sle natural. I used the West System white tint, which works pretty well for the bilge. I will sand it and apply a couple more coats. I am also planning on installing a 10" inspection port on the fo'c'sle. This is an afterthought, as I am learning as I go along. I want to create a storage area that is secure and dry. There is plenty of room between the chain locker and the compression post access port, and it is solid closed-cell foam all beneath the fo'c'sle deck. I will simply cut out a large cylindrical area and seal it with glass and epoxy. I am actually thinking about doing something similar for the foam block beneath the cabin sole. This could be a good area for dry storage as well. Particularly for things I may not need on any long voyages, but keep just in case.
Again, it is slow but steady progress. My dreams of getting her in the water this year have once again passed, but I did sail quite a lot on my Sunfish!
Cheers!
Robert
I took a long sail a week ago on the Sunfish with a colleague, and somehow cracked the hull. She started taking on water, and it really slowed me down a lot on the return trip. All this practice of glass work has really paid off. I now am looking for fiberglass projects and may even try some carbon fiber projects for my '72 MG Midget, as I turn her into a vintage racer!
One lesson for anyone is that it simply takes practice to develop some techniques. I would certainly do things differently on the CP-16, if I were doing it all over. In fact, I am already thinking about a larger project in the future! West Systems is really a great resource, by the way. I called them and talked with one of their engineers to get some advice at one point. They are very knowledgeable and helpful. I would skip buying some of the other premixed products, like barrier coating, and simply mix my own with West System products. It is by far the cheapest, and easiest to do. I now have different hardeners and fillers in my workshop, and am prepared for different issues. Again, it is all a learning process, and you get better as you try different products out.
Cheers!
Robert
Ahoy, Sailors!
I apologize for keeping you waiting for updates, but I also own a classic British sports car, a '72 MG Midget. I don't know if I need to say any more about that, but it keeps me busy in the garage over the summer months. My motivation seems to come in spurts for working on the boat or working on the MG. Anyhow, I have now started working on the deck and getting it ready for putting it all back together.
You can see that the bilge is painted now. I used bilge paint from Total Boat. It is a one-part epoxy, and a great product. It really sticks and is thick. But, it stinks to high heaven. I had to wear my charcoal organic filters on my breathing mask.
I am now strengthening the thin, and in some places quite brittle, lip on the deck, where the deck and the hull are sealed and fastened together.
Cheers!
Robert
Looking real good Robert!
Thank you, Carl! I do appreciate the encouragement.
Ahoy!
Some more updates: I had to reinforce the lip of the deck, where it is fastened to the hull. It was a little thin anyhow, but I definitely nicked it in a few places with the reciprocating saw. After grinding off the sealant, I was down to gelcoat in a few places, so there wasn't much structure. I filled in areas with thickened epoxy and chop strand. I put down extra layers on the corners and along the stern, where it seemed to have the most stress. Then I went back over it all with a strip of chop strand and then a woven tape. It should be plenty strong now.
Robert
You're doing a fantastic job on her!