Re: Loose foot the main to reduce weather helm?

[mattman]

A footed main and loose footed main are cut differently. I don't believe one can take a footed main and fly it loose footed with any positive effects. Your question involved removing excessive weather helm from your boat. The real question is why is it excessive in the first place. If I were in your shoes, I would ensure that my sails were in good shape- meaning reasonably new as in the last couple years, cut well, and then re-tune the rig starting with a straight mast or about 1.5 or 2 % of your P measure. Sail in moderate wind-with sail draft in the appropriate place and adjust the rig from there to get a weather helm position of about 4 degrees on the tiller with little effort to maintain the tiller position. On the other hand...if you have blown sails, you can tune the rig to flatten things out and reduce helm. Put in some prebend to move draft forward. Put a little  more power into the headsail to try to balance things out. Doing a rig tuning to fix a bad sail is a short term fix though. Best of luck.

[chimerakc]

I am new here posted in another place before I saw this.

My 1986 23 squats in the stern - have had her a year, put a new heavier outboard on, that and two batteries are making her do that?? and contribute to weather helm?    I have added about 150 lbs of weight up near the chain locker, and of course when sailing I can just ease the main to balance the helm. But I hate doing that. 

I also want it balanced because I worry it stresses my tiller autopilot?  Is that true? Does it drain the battery faster?

I also raked the mast foward - but could only tighten the forestay turnbuckle two turns. I havent seen if that helped yet. 

So I am thinking anything that makes the main work harder is going to add to weather helm but am getting conflicting opinions on that when it comes to try sailing with a loose foot.   Any thoughts?   I guess its not that hard to try and see....

[Salty19]

There is a lot of information on here about this, doing a search will help quite a bit.

This post will get you started.

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=5416.msg37925#msg37925

IMO, ditch the heavy outboard (keep to 60lbs or less) and do the loose foot mod and proper sail trimming. Also
if you do not have one, a foiled rudder is in order.

Well, I guess you're another new 23 owner so Bob23 our local bill collector will probably give you a good discount on the $5,000
membership fees that are (past) due.  No wonder he drives an old truck, he's always giving away memberships for substantial discounts!

[Potcake boy]

Mattman,

You covered it beautifully, thank you.

[Craig]

One caution on loose footing your stock main. The stock main is not stressed(cut)for loose footed deployment. Using it loose footed may cause some stretching especially if deployed in stronger wind. Correcting trim would be a good place to start as mentioned previously.

[Salty19]

Mattman- I may have inadvertently deleted your post. Certainly not to intentional!

[Bob23]

Thank you Craig, and that makes perfect sense. How did you know I was planning to do just that??
Bob23

[mattman]

And I did not save the post either...wah... essentially tune your rig to get about 4 degrees of weather helm. One should not have to go forward of vertical. If you can't get there...guess what you should be buying...

[Bob23]

  Au contraire, the common knowledge is that the 23's like to have their masts raked a bit forward, about 2 degrees. Maybe the 61's differ in this respect. I'm not sure how one goes about measuring the degrees of mast rake so I just eyeballed mine.
  With the mast raked slightly forward, the custom wood foiled rudder and good sails, I also recut the top of the rudder blade to allow it to tilt much further forward than the stock blade. I'm guessing my blade is about 10 degrees forward of plumb, maybe a bit more. I then modified the stock Compac hold down bracket to keep the blade in place. With these modifications, I have a practically neutral helm, just a bit of weather helm. The recutting of the top of the blade made a huge difference.
  I've wondered how the 23's would fare with an inboard rudder. I don't think it'd be too difficult, just cut and install a rudder shaft through the little aft deck. I wonder if stock 27 parts would work? Sure, you would sacrifice the kick up feature but then again, it would not be needed. Maybe Keith at the Sailboat Shop has already done this....

  Salty: Thank you for the kind and encouraging comments. In reviewing my records, it seems that your membership is expiring by the end of the year but the good news is that I'm offering for you and you only a half price lifetime membership. If you act now you'll qualify for a free Guinness at next years CLR. Our operators are standing by to take (haha!) your credit card info now. Don't delay...this offer will not last!

Bob23

[Tim Gardner]

I'm sorry, Bob, I already re-upped Salty. BOY DID THAT EDMOND FITZGERALD TASTE GREAT ?
TG

[Bob23]

WHAT A DOG!!! And I was gonna split his fee with you. Some friend... 

[Salty19]

Well, I got your post back Matt.  It was in the duplicate topic that is now locked.

Matt's post is located at the first post in this topic now. Why I can't move it down is beyond me, but there it is now.

Bob, I thought we had agreement about the fees, but I guess you forgot about the exclusive and before now kept secret pictures of you
that could spread and ruin your sparkling reputation.  Just a quick sample to job your memory...

[Potcake boy]

Now that's unfair to Bob, that picture could be any sailor, except I don't drink PBR.

[Bob23]

  OH MY GOSH!! I am sooo embarrassed!!!! Don't know how I'll ever show my face around here again. I haven't worn socks that high in years!!! Where on earth did you find this??? That is really hitting below the belt.
Bob23....so embarrassed!! Well, not really. Let's see any of you other old farts with an afro like mine!!!!

[Salty19]

Ron,

True--every sailor knows the afro acts as a personal windex and boom clearance sensor.  You know how we love dual purpose
use equipment! Plus the ladies love it. 

Bob, I am sorry if I embarrassed you with the white tube socks picture.  I didn't realize you would be so upset.  But let this be a friendly reminder about mentioning the fee situation in the future.  I'm sure after a few jokes the crew will soon forget all about this.

I actually didn't recognize you in the picture at first because you weren't wearing a pair of beloved Converse sneakers with striped yellow and blue socks.  Yep, those white tube socks really are embarrassing!

Apologies to Chimerakc for the thread drift.  A lot of us have been here awhile and have taken up thread drift as a past time.

Were you able to use the search feature to read more about them?

I like mine and have the CP19 setup well to make it easy to adjust and reef.  I had National sails build a fully battened and loose footed main out of 5.5oz cloth and use it on a small inland lake where winds might be very light or very strong (3-30knots)--the weather changes every day.ut, usually the winds are on the lighter end, and the loose foots works better in lighter wind than the bolt rope foots, so that's what I went with.   It has performed really well in all conditions. There was a picture of the outhaul setup I'm using on the post linked to earlier.   
IMO if you are frequently in bigger water or stronger winds, you might not want the loose foot as they are really designed to add power in lower wind conditions.

Not sure about converting a bolt roped, non-loose footed sail to a loose foot (permanently) as the sail is sewn in a way to reinforce the new pressure point (tack) and material is cut to get the sail shape correct and optimized for the footing type.  There is a tremendous amount of pressure at the outhaul on the loose footed main in strong winds, so consider how you are going to setup a mechanical advantage.   Slowing down and releasing power to adjust is a PITA-being able to adjust while moving along your course is the best way to go, so I would definitely think about using a 3 or 4:1 outhaul block rigging setup with a loose foot.   You could convert it, play around with it and see what you think and get to understand how the setup works without getting a new sail, but be careful about stressing the sail.   But if it's old and you are thinking of another one anyway, go for it.