Fuel system problems continue !!!

[Allure2sail]

Question for someone....
Anyone have a vacuum gage on the outlet of their water separator. I understand as the vacuum increases it means the filter needs changing. I believe the magic number is 6 or 7 inches of vacuum.
My gage after I put it all back together barely read 1 inch. So do I have a really efficient fuel system or is the facet lift pump on its way out. The motor still wont stay running and I get air out of the injector pump bleed screw. Also curious about the small copper washer under the head of the bleeder at the injector pump, does that need to be replaced? Everything else in the fuel system has been replaced as stated in an earlier post. I refuse to give up on this !!! Anyone have ideas?
Bruce
S/V Allure

[deisher6]

Hey Bruce:  All I have for you is a suggestion to remount the pump as low as you can go.  I had moved mine during one iteration of my fuel problems, next to the racor filter.  It was not working, if i recall correctly I could not bleed the system and or the pump could not generate enough pull.  With the pump mounted low against the aft wall of the  head in the starboard locker it is below the majority if not all fuel tank and should have a little positive pressure on the intake side.  It has been working for the past two years. 

[bobp]

I don't have a vacuum gauge but I have had a problem similar to yours. I kept getting air and of course a no start. I put clear line in front of and out of the racor filter. With the pump running I could see air bubbles in the line coming out of the filter but none going in. I ended up replacing the racor unit itself as could not get it to stop sucking air. Once the  racor filter assy was replaced I could bleed the system and haven't had a problem since.
Robert
Afternoon Delight

[Allure2sail]

Hi bobp:
I thought mine was bad as well so I replaced it with a new bigger racor (think it is a 245). Sorry to say the problem is still there. I can bleed it a dozen times but air gets into it again. Just ordered a new lift pump even though I tried my spare and it didn't help. Nothing left to change out. (see earlier post).
Thanks
Bruce

[Allure2sail]

Hi Charlie:
My pump is probably at the most an inch higher than yours. I'm frustrated to say the least. Just ordered another lift pump.
Bruce

[Allure2sail]

Hi Guys:
Waiting for a new facet lift pump Part #476087E. It is the one recommended by Moyer Marine for 34 foot Catalina's three cylinder universal. Going to take everything apart again and use thread sealant on all fittings. Never had to go that far before but I am out of ideas. Also getting a new copper washer for under the bleed screw on the injector pump. Also going to try and use a five gallon diesel jug for a temporary gas tank with fresh diesel fuel. Vacuum gage doesn't tell me much, 1 inch of vacuum with pump running and 5.5 inches with valve at the tank shut off. Did that to measure how much pull the lift pump had. With a clogged filter and not letting fuel through I have read that (same as shutting off the supply) it should be in the range of 7 to 8 inches of vacuum. Perhaps the lift pump is on it's way out....."grabbing for straws" at this point in time. Any ideas or advice welcomed.
THE STRUGGLE CONTINUES !!!
Bruce

[Shawn]

Bruce,

Be careful with thread sealant, use the liquid stuff not tape. I've read about a few cases where the tape gets into fuel systems and clogs your high pressure fuel pump or the injectors themselves.

Do you have something like this?

http://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/vacuum-pump/oem-vacuum-pump-and-gauge-tester-includes-24-in-tube/2080_0_0/?checkfit=true

If you do I'd use it to test the system piece by piece to isolate the leak. For example shut off the fuel valve and connect the tester to the line that would go to the input of the filter. Pump up the vacuum and see if it will hold. If it does no leak, if it doesn't you have a leak in that segment. Repeat in each segment of your fuel system and see where you can't hold a vacuum.

If you can rig it up you could also try gravity feeding the high pressure fuel pump. It should have its own low pressure pump inside before the high pressure pump. As long as it gets a good supply of fuel it should run. 

*IN Theory* the leak is at or before your lift pump. Anything after the lift pump will be under pressure so it wouldn't be sucking air while the engine is running. If your problem was a restart issue with air in the lines the leak could be just about anywhere but since you can't stay running I would focus on the lift pump to the fuel tank.

Aren't diesels fun?

Shawn

P.S. How about the pickup tube in the tank? If it is cracked/damaged you could end up with an air leak after the fuel level drops below the crack....

[Allure2sail]

Hi Shawn:
I agree, I would never use tape and I'm going to find some liquid stuff and stay away from the first couple of threads. This is really last resort stuff. Chatted with Hanson Marine up in Marblehead, MA and he feels the Facet pump is dying. I have one coming in on Friday and will try that next. Also found a MithyVac tool at Harbor Freight for $39. I'll see if can find one of those discount coupons they are always sending out. Everything is really tight and double clamped and I did check the pickup tube as well. If the pump doesn't fix things I'll pickup the vacuum tool and go from there.
Thanks
Bruce
P.S. I think your in New England if my memory serves my right?

[Shawn]

Hi Bruce,

Yup, I live in Ma. but sail out of Wickford and keep the Sabre in Fall River over the winter.

Good luck!

Shawn

[Allure2sail]

Hi Shawn:
I kind of remember that. I'm up in Swansea but been to Wickford a number of times. Hope to try the new lift pump this weekend. I went to the boat tonight to check the vacuum lever with my spare pump (original pump from when I bought the boat. The boat came from the Oaklawn Beach area. The spare pump pulls 6" of vacuum, that is with the tank valve shut and the line pinched off with a clamp. It takes 12 seconds to get there and 12 seconds to drop back to 0". With the valve open on the tank and obviously no clamp I get 1" of vacuum. I have no idea if any of that is good or bad. I have read that 7 to 8 inches means a clogged filter and that is all I've been able to find out. If the new lift pump doesn't solve the problem of air getting in I am going to Harbor Freight and pick up a "MightyVac" like you mentioned. Their $39 and I have a 25% off coupon. If I can't find the vacuum leak after that I'm hiring someone to figure it out. Found a guy that use to work for DePaul over in Middletown. Last resort !!!
Bruce

[Allure2sail]

Hi Guys:
Got diesel squared away today. Took all the vacuum side of the fuel system apart today. Eliminated the shutoff valve with a straight nipple, new fuel line to input side of lift pump, bleed the injector pump and motor ran fine. Put the new shutoff valve back in the system and still ran fine. I put the new racor back in line of the fuel system and motor keep dying again. Problem pinpointed, I refused to believe that two racors could be bad. The original smaller unit has either a porosity problem or a bad o'ring and it was already in the dumpster. After looking closely at the new bigger racor I realized that you could run two fuel lines in and out of it (I guess it was robust enough to handle a dual engine setup). The bleeders on top of the unit were tight, along with the primer pump. The second outlet was plugged and tightened amply. The plug on the second inlet although tight still could have been tightend more with a wrench. Once I gave it a few more turns and once again bleed out the air at the injector pump it started and ran fine. Matter of fact it runs perfect. I refused to believe that the new racor could also be bad as well. Spent another hundred on the new facet lift pump for nothing, the one in use was just fine, Now I have two spare lift pumps!! I was wrong to assume the new racor 245 was good to go as purchased, also still believe that the other smaller racor had gone bad.

LESSONS LEARNED OUT OF ALL OF THIS:
Take the damn screen out of the pickup tube and throw it away !!.
Move gas tank over enough to too starboard to be able to take out the pickup tube without having to take out the four screws and ground wire used in mounting the tank.
Check tightness of all fittings and double clamp all hoses.
Added a vacuum gage after the water separator/filter to tell when that filter needs to be changed.
Write on the filter with a sharpie the date of installation.
Use the recommended algaside at every tank fill up.
I also use a good brand (Lucas) of injector cleaner as prescribed when fueling up.
All hoses really should be all the same size with the corresponding correct size fittings for it.
I use a filter funnel when filling the fuel tank.
Try and always keep the tank as full as possible.

Wish I could think of more, as if that isn't that enough already......sick of posting about fuel systems......time to change the subject !!!!
Signing off and going sailing, at last........
Bruce
S/V Allure
Swansea, MA

PS Shawn, I never got around to buying the "MightyVac" at Harbor Freight, don't need it anymore (I hope).

[Shawn]

Bruce,

Glad you got it squared away. Hope you can get out for a bit before the weather turns bad.

Shawn

[deisher6]

Hey Bruce:
Hooraaaah! Great to hear that you are up and running.  Thanks for posting.
regards charlie

[bobp]

The clear tubing is the way to go for finding air leaks as you will be able to see the air bubbles and determine where they are coming from. Also as a preventive measure for algae. If you use a vacuum pump for changing oil add a metal tube to the hose and insert the tube thru the fuel tank pickup opening and suck off the bottom in various areas to remove any water. no water no algae.
Robert
Afternoon Delight