Horizon vs Sun Cat

[Tom L.]

For those of you who had a Sun Cat before your Horizon Cat, A question. How much more room is there in the Horizon? Is there comfortable sitting head room. Are the side decks wider and easier to move forward?  Just curious as I may be thinking bigger.

I also would want the O.B.version and tiller. The O.B. for ease of Maintenance and the wheel steering seems out of place and awkward. I really need to go check one out in person. New is out of the question for my budget an most newer to. But I need to start looking and saving.

Tom L.

[Craig]

Having had both boats I can give you some input. As for cockpit space the HC is substantially larger with a caveat which speaks to your choice of a tiller vs wheel. The tiller will NOT give you more cockpit space. To the contrary it will have to "sweep" a fair amount of seating in essence reducing usable seating. The HC is my first wheel steered boat in all my years of sailing(more than I want to count!). At first I had a difficult time in adapting(40+ years of muscle memory!). That being said, having adjusted, I really prefer the wheel(actually most of the old original cats had wheels). Yes it does not provide the same feel and response of the tiller. However the increased cockpit space, the ability to leave the helm for brief periods of time, less steering effort when the wind pipes up, easier backing out of the slip, and one less piece of wood to maintain more than compensates! With the big foiled rudder the HC is amazingly responsive and maneuverable and will do a 180 in little over a boat length, again compensating for the tiller steering. As to the side decks, again they are noticeably wider and easier to navigate. One of the first things I noticed about the HC is the ride and "carry". In a chop the HC is far smoother riding than the Suncat. The increased weight makes it easier to tack in light air and chop. I have yet to miss a tack. The increased carry is helpful in docking since I can go to neutral sooner and "coast" into the slip at very low speed. As I mentioned earlier, the wheel makes it easy to back out of the slip. On the Suncat the tiller seemed to have a mind of its own when backing, slamming to one side or the other if not carefully attended(Tricky if you are also trying to steer with the OB). I am 6'2" and there is plenty of seated headroom in the HC and the cabin is very roomy for a 20 footer. The separate head with sink is also nice. We opted for the diesel and really love it. Aside from the fuel economy and electric start, the electrical system(2 batteries and a hefty alternator) makes for somewhat more independence when anchoring out. The downside of most smaller OBs is that they have wimpy alternators for system recharge. On the other hand there is no doubt that it is nice to be able to remove the engine for maintenance. On the plus side of the diesel, no one is going to steal your motor! If you are ever in Punta Gorda feel free to give me a call for a personal tour of Kailani. Hope all this is helpful! Good luck in your quest and let me know if you have any other questions.

[blighhigh]

The other advantages of an out board as opposed to the diesel is the extra storage space in the cabin as well as reduced weight.

[Craig]

The weight is reduced but the diesel is in effect ballast, low and more amidships so the choice is what it is. The choice is based on a number of personal parameters. There are a lot of good reasons to choose the OB option. In any case the sailing qualities of the HC remain the same!

[Tom L.]

Graig, thank you ever so much for the input. I think I saw your boat at the marina in Punta Gorda near the Sheraton, right? I was down there that rainy weekend when the WCTSS sailed or tried to sail the upper bay. We were rained out.

I agree with you about the diesel i have had several larger boats with diesels and they are really reliable. The weight in the middle of the boat is most likely better than the O.B. hanging on the transom. But I am concerned about keeping the initial costs down and a plus is much simpler maintenance if things do go wrong. However as a matter of fact on the 4 diesel inboard boats i owned i did all the routine maintenance and never had to bring a mechanic on board and I put a lot of hours on my boats. As for the alternator on O.B., that, I agree is a total waste of time and money. The motor would have to run for hours to do any charging. A solar panel would be my solution.

You are right about the tiller being a cockpit sweep, but it's usually just me and My wife sailing so that is not an issue. All my bigger boats had wheels but you stood behind the wheel not in front. I am sure I could adapt but I really like to steer smaller boats and feel the helm. When I get my Sun Cat Balanced I can steer with my finger tips. I think the cost for a tiller steered boat may be less too.

I saw a Horizon Cat listed in Punta Gorda by a broker. I think it was an "04". Are you familiar with the boat?

Thanks for offering to tour your Horizon. Next time I am down that way I may try to contact you and set up that tour.

Thanks Again

Tom Lincoln

[Craig]

Tom, I am not familiar with the '04 HC but can check around and get some info. It may be with Gulf Island sails/ Punta Gorda Yacht Brokers(where we bought Kailani) which is only a couple of blocks from Laishley. Yes that was my boat you saw. She is barely showing in a couple of pics of the event posted on the WCTSS website. You may have trouble finding a used tiller steered HC as the wheel is standard. As you probably know, Compac will do a special order tiller on a new boat but I am not sure how many are out there. There are two here, one a Horizon Day Cat and a std HC in St Maarten. I agree on the feel of a tiller! Miss it sometimes but the wheel is not bad now that I am used to it Get in touch if you are down this way!

[Aldebaran_III]

Hi Tom,

I'm the HC mentioned in St.Maarten. I have the tiller version and love it for the feel and the quick response in our gusty conditions.
My version has a slot through the aft coaming for the tiller. Need more room at anchor, just pull a quick pin and the tiller comes out of the rudder stock. I think there is also a version with a v-slot in the aft coaming, on this one the tiller simply hinges upwards to get out of the way.
We also sail two up and we find the boat ideal for us. We have a Tohatsu 6hp extra long shaft which has been great. It's a shame there are no other HC's around here. I'd love to sail a diesel version against an o/b version. It probably wouldn't make much difference in stronger winds, but in a light breeze.... who knows?
I'm trying for the keep it simple approach, so I don't even have a battery in the battery box, so my HC must be pretty light!

Cheers,
Derek

[capt_nemo]

Aldebaran_III,

Don't be in a hurry to give up the simple approach to sailing your HC, without a battery.

Had my Sun Cat for 5 1/2 years and NEVER put a Battery in it! And yet, I cruised comfortably with small battery powered lights for anchoring, navigation lights, reading, general lighting, etc..

I used paper charts, compass, and parallel ruler in lieu of chart plotter, and a lead line in lieu of depth sounder.

Did have a hand-held VHF for communication and emergencies and a small hand-held GPS for speed and electronic compass.

Life aboard was simple, uncomplicated, and exhilarating.

I learned the value of KEEPING IT SIMPLE from experience with complex electromechanical systems on my larger cruising boats, both sail and power, that I took up and down the East Coast and over to the Bahamas for months at a time.

capt_nemo

[Tom L.]

Derek, from your description it sounds like your Horizon is already wired for 12 volt but you have not installed a battery. My Sun Cat was wired too but I bought it used and the battery was shot and a monster to handle and overkill for the small tasks it had to deal with. So I decided to use a jump starter battery back. Very light and portable. It can easily be taken off the boat and plugged in to recharge. My only reason to have the battery is to operate a sounder. In the skinny water we have in Western Florida it is a great help to sail into areas too shallow but gives me time to tack off and avoid grounding. We mainly have sandy bottoms that don't change abruptly. The other big draw on electric is the anchor light. I have been using a led potable lamp very bright that runs on AA batteries. In addition I use a Garmin 78SC also operating on AA batteries. So far the jump start battery pack has worked very well for the style of pocket cruising we do now. You might want to give it some thought. Easy low cost low impact solution to power up your boat if you are going to do a few short cruises and overnights.

[Bilge Rat]

Interesting idea Tom to use a portable jump start battery. I have yet to put a battery in my sun cat.  Do you just clip the clamps from the jump starter to the connections on the boat? Is it enough to power the exterior anchor lights and cabin light?  I have a 500 Amp instant jump starter and may just give this a try.

[Tom L.]

Shawn, I can't remember the capacity but I have the smallest jump starter that Harbor Freight makes. So far it has been up to the task. Yes you just clip the large alligator clamps to the wires that attache to the positive and negative battery posts. If you already own a Jump stater it's a no brainier to try it out. I have a bulk head mounted strap that I hold the jump starter in place. It's not heavy but you certainly don't want it banging around. Price was right too, $39.

I use all the house lights on the boat but honestly not very much. For an anchor light I use a portable LED light that runs on AA batteries. Very bright. My GPS is also a portable Garmin 78sc running on AA batteries. My sounder runs on the house power and is the largest consummer of electric.

Tom L.

[Craig]

I used a garden tractor/motorcycle battery from Walmart in our Suncat with an inexpensive solar charger from Harbor Freight to keep it charged. Very easy to get in and out. Plenty of power for our needs.

[hoddinr]

Tom,

Perhaps straying slightly off topic, but following your thread about using a depth sounder.  Did you install your transducer inside the boat or through hull?  If inside the boat, how did you do it and how well does it work?

Thanks,
Ron

[Tom L.]

I installed the transducer inside the boat on the centerline. I cut an access panel through the cabin bench seat in the internal bridge deck just aft of the bulkhead leading to the forward locker. I had to remove the foam in that area. I sanded and cleaned the hull well then sealed the transducer to the inside of the hull with clear silicone. It works fine, is out of the way and can't be knocked loose by gear. It is surrounded by foam.

It is a very inexpensive Hawkeye sounder so I think any transducer can be internally mounted. No holes in the boat...that's a good thing. There maybe some exotic forward looking units that have to be mounted externally.

Tom L.

[hoddinr]

Thanks Tom.  How hard was it to remove the foam to get to the hull in that area?

Ron