Soft cabin top on my CP25

[legends117]

I have noticed that my (new to me) CP25, has a soft spot on the port side cabin top.  During this weekends rain, I noticed a drip below one of the exposed fasteners below the traveler, so I know that at least one penetration is not sealed.  Traditionally, I would attribute this soft spot to moisture damaged plywood or balsa.  However, I thought Com-Pacs didn't use plywood or balsa in their cabin top but used some kind of micro bubble epoxy. 

Does anyone have any insight they would care to share with this new owner?

Thanks - JD

[wes]

Contrary to popular belief, Com-Pacs do have some cored deck areas, although instead of balsa they use sheets of foam (not epoxy). Although it doesn't rot like balsa in the event of a leak, it does get waterlogged and then the deck gets soft. I'm speaking from painful and expensive personal experience, having paid to have the entire foredeck of my 27 re-cored due to leaks at the corners where the cabin top meets the foredeck (common weak point on earlier generation 27s; mine is a 1988).

An experienced boatyard technician (not the yahoo who does bottom paint all day) with a moisture meter can help you determine whether the problem is limited to a manageable area. If our old friend Macgyver checks in here, he'll probably have more advice for you. Good luck!

Wes

[NateD]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Com-Pac 25 is an updated Watkins 25? From this site: http://www.watkinsowners.com/construction.htm it sounds like Watkins used a wood core for the deck, but interestingly:

"The later models use a butcher block arrangement of plywood squares to reinforce the deck, combings and cabin top.  The butcher block design limits the spread of water and dry rot to one small square.  Many production boat builders of the era used solid plywood as a reinforcement.  This lets water and dry rot spread over large areas.  Watkins changed to the butcher block design around 1980 when management changed and several design and production changes occurred."

If Hutchins followed the same procedure, then the repair might be to a limited area.

[legends117]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Com-Pac 25 is an updated Watkins 25? From this site: http://www.watkinsowners.com/construction.htm it sounds like Watkins used a wood core for the deck, but interestingly:

"The later models use a butcher block arrangement of plywood squares to reinforce the deck, combings and cabin top.  The butcher block design limits the spread of water and dry rot to one small square.  Many production boat builders of the era used solid plywood as a reinforcement.  This lets water and dry rot spread over large areas.  Watkins changed to the butcher block design around 1980 when management changed and several design and production changes occurred."

If Hutchins followed the same procedure, then the repair might be to a limited area.

Yeah - that is correct NateD, but I guess only the Hutchens know what material was used.  I guess I can email them, or cut the dang thing open and see.  UGH.

[legends117]

Contrary to popular belief, Com-Pacs do have some cored deck areas, although instead of balsa they use sheets of foam (not epoxy). Although it doesn't rot like balsa in the event of a leak, it does get waterlogged and then the deck gets soft. I'm speaking from painful and expensive personal experience, having paid to have the entire foredeck of my 27 re-cored due to leaks at the corners where the cabin top meets the foredeck (common weak point on earlier generation 27s; mine is a 1988).

An experienced boatyard technician (not the yahoo who does bottom paint all day) with a moisture meter can help you determine whether the problem is limited to a manageable area. If our old friend Macgyver checks in here, he'll probably have more advice for you. Good luck!

Wes

Wes - I am a home inspector - so I have all the tools to find moisture.  Here is a good tip for a red flag, when the PO sits in a position that prevents you from walking on one side of the cabin top, that should have been an indication to ask him to move to the other side.  It is my fault I didn't discover it...the cost of ignorance. - JD

[wes]

Nate - I know of no connection between Hutchins and Watkins; the design for the 27 was commissioned by Hutchins from yacht designer Bob Johnson (now the president of Island Packet). He also designed the CP 19.

That Watkins statement about the squares of core material is the purest BS. Hutchins and pretty much all builders use the "butcher block" (more accurate to call it "parquet") technique, because it accommodates more curvature in the deck, but it makes not the slightest impact on containing moisture migration. Water in my foredeck migrated almost six feet from the (small) cracks - basically until it reached the limit of the cored area. Water is amazing that way.

Macgyver, where are you? Peel away from Wal-Mart for a minute and lend a hand here...

Wes

[NateD]

Nate - I know of no connection between Hutchins and Watkins; the design for the 27 was commissioned by Hutchins from yacht designer Bob Johnson (now the president of Island Packet). He also designed the CP 19.

It's not the most authoritative source, but check the LWL, beam, and draft along with the hull lines of the Com-Pac 25: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3021
Compare to the Watkins 25: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=408

I believe Hutchins added the bowsprit which increased LOA. Apparently the hull is based off of an old Columbia 24 mold that in-house folks at Watkins made extensive changes to, so no exact credit for who designed the hull.

he power boat line was sold to a company in Grand Cayman Islands about two years after the closure. The three sailboat models in production at time of closure were sold to a local man but he was unable to start up a business.  The W25 molds eventually ended up in the hands of Compaq yachts who used the molds to create the Compac 25.  The hull mold was left unchanged but Compac revamped the deck mold in the coach roof area and change the rectangular ports to round all to more closely match the appearance of the Compac brand.  Compac also substituted Masonite and Formica for the teak doors and teak veneer bulkheads.  The boat is still in production.  The status of the other molds and tooling is unknown but presumed destroyed.  Years after the business closed, several molds were seen lying in the weeds behind the plant by a Watkins owner visiting the area.  These molds were the discontinued models: W17, W23, W27, W36 Eventually the buildings were sold to a plumbing supply, contractor.

Source: http://www.watkinsowners.com/history.htm

[MacGyver]

Wes has some very good points. All makers use a form of core material that is cut into squares or has cuts through it to accommodate curvature and such. Most boats that I had to re-core had this foam that was squares cut into it to accommodate curves and such. When this is combined into a sandwich with fiberglass, it causes a  firm deck spot due to its ability to support itself as its own structure.

Without the bottom glass holding, and the top glass, the structure is not firm and will flex accordingly. It truly was neat when I first cut open a deck, seeing steam come out from the saturation, and then seeing how the top layer actually did a lot to maintain structure despite its delamination from the core material due to the water damages.

That being said, I realized that the best way to repair these sections for myself was to attend to the issues from the top first, meaning the hardware problems, then try to dry out the boat, and see if the deck stiffened back up. leave penetrations below open as those will cause as a tell tale sign of issue. Your wanting to keep water out, not in.

This may keep you from having to destroy upper deck replacing problems and such, making a unsightly section, and paying out a ton. Sealing the top appropriately, then using a dehumidifier inside, and making that unit pull as much out is a great start, but is against what the normal standards are, as it doesn't make money.

This thought process will show you then over some time, whether the structure is damaged a lot, or just a little and could condense the repair spot or even the choice of repair. With that said, I am not saying that all the water will come out, cause it very well might not! but that would essentially tell you what the next repair method would be, along with extent.

We buy boats to sail, and enjoy...... not to spend every dime in to fix every little issue. We would never have fun by just fixing every little issue.

One note I am going to write: Plywood (wood in general) cores are fairly easy to replace, and actually do rot. they are typically put in straight areas, so much easier to get right. The cores however like foam and such could pose a harder task. The reason they break down is the water gets trapped in them, causing a structure malfunction, meaning structure is there where it shouldn't be. This weakens the structure, causing the damages. Over time the water being in there isnt actually rotting it, it is subsequently helping the structure to destroy itself by breaking it down within its own needs.

Freeze and thaw is also a big winner here, destroying from within, which is why I feel the dehumidifier working to assist and sealing the top penetrations is the first route I would take, and therefore possibly saving me a lot of money.


Also, on Wes's 27, his damage due to those cracks would have possibly been very hard to see or feel because of the locations of the structure to help aid in the support methods. What may be common flexation of his boat deck in today's time might have not been the case when his boat was brand new. That is why it is imperative to maintain a boat when one owns one, to be sure that issues are handled promptly and not left to remain, or you will end up with a boat that you walk on and feel like you are walking on a trampoline, and I have been on a few boats like that........ WOW.

Anyway, I hope my advice helps. The moisture meter is a good thing as well, but we have had sometimes a false positive, and you dont want to open a boat up on a false positive.  Water finds the path of least resistance, but it spreads like wild fire. Its damages due to structure wont show up until it is larger than you would have liked.

Micro balloon epoxy, makers use a polyester resin typically, which is not water resistant like Epoxy is (West System is like 99.5 % water proof). what is interesting about that stuff is just the same when water penetrates it, it makes it break down as well (I have seen it, fixed that stuff too.) and it causes cracks which possibly naturally come with age to start, and water helps make them bigger. This in turn breaks down the structure causing soft spots.

If I had a bet in your issue, I would say the damage is a foam core, slight curvature, and it has been a issue for some time, just now being large enough to be a noticeable problem. Dependent on location you might be able to fix it through the hardware penetration and be done with it. Although it would take some time and planning, that deck might remain intact, with tedious work, and be much better than it was before.

Ive got to go get my hair cut! No time to read what all I just typed! Ill check back!

Mac

[legends117]

Mac - I do appreciate you taking the time to compile that detailed evaluation and recommendation.  I had not thought about using a dehumidifier to attempt to dry out the core, but I understand the theory and agree that it is the most economical first step.  I do wonder about the effectiveness of the dehumidifier in the boat, as it would seem to draw ambient moisture from the unsealed cracks and crevasses (hatch boards, and engine compartment), but it is definitely worth trying.  How long would you estimate it would take to determine of the process was drying out the core?

Thanks again - JD

[MacGyver]

To be honest, hard to tell. I would feel the deck and use that as the measure. I have a friend that did it as it sat in a covered shed. The shed was not like totally sealed from the outside, but the dehumidifier did dry out the boat significantly despite that.

He also had the hatch partially open so that it would vent the heat as it was a small boat.  I think he left it in the boat for a couple weeks, emptying it often, and monitoring the outside humidity and such to figure how much was from the boat itself. He did tell me the idea he felt worked because the unit would draw less as the days went on, and the boat seemed dryer to him. The shed held a pretty constant humidity during the experiment as well.

I would keep feeling the area and see what happens as you try the same thing. it might stiffen back up, or remain soft, and if it remained soft, possibly the structure has damaged.

That is where repair through the hole would come into play, by using a pic and angled wire to dig out the core, so that you can fill the area with thickened epoxy formulation. Thus it would restructure the area, not needing the core, and allow it to also not be degraded by water any longer.

I hope that makes sense. Some of the information I have spewed forth is also stuff I learned over time, so when I explain, I try to be efficient about it but some of it is like a feel to a job, you can feel how it is and how it goes. Hard to explain those aspects of a job.

Let me know if you need anything else on here, I will keep watching, and try to help the best I can.

Mac