Wheel instead of Tiller

[ilbuildit]

  Hello from the home of the Nations highest Sailing club (Dillon Yacht Club, ele 9,017ft above sea level). Sailing is new to me and after a lesson from an experienced sailor (Reading Sailing for Dummies several times over) and several times out on my own on a lake know for swirling and changing winds, I am really getting the hang of this.
  My thoughts go to loosing the tiller and mounting a wheel at the back of the cockpit. Because the CP16 isn't the largest vessel out there and with four people in the cockpit, the tiller sometimes becomes a problem. I am a fabricator and a Journeyman collision repair tech and have a design that is simple with few moving parts and geared to easily turn the wheel/rudder, but wondering if anyone out there has done this themselves? Would like to see other ideas if possible. Thanks...

[mgoller]

Hey,
There is a picture in the CP19 section of the photo gallery of a com-pac 19 with a wheel  (#33).  I wish there was more information.  At one time there was much more info and photos but I don't know where it is.  Anyway, it isn't a bad idea at all.  I know what you mean about passengers.  Think about speed and leverage so you can steer with heavy weather helm, in a hurry etc...
Also, if possible keep in mind if you sell the boat a buyer may take a dim view of a modification if it can't be reversed to stock condition.
Its your boat, enjoy it.  Part of the fun of sailing is suiting the boat to your liking.
Give us a report.
maybe someone here remembers the heavily modified CP19 from two years ago.  It had a lot of extra teak, and a new skylight hatch, wheel etc...

[Paul]

Ibuildit:

Welcome to the forum.  Glad you're enjoying your CP-16.  Any of us who have had more than one other adult on our 16's can relate to the space issue with the tiller.  If you can build a wheel and make it work, let us know!  That could look cool.  However, I cannot visualize how you'd make it work.  Doesn't mean it can't be done, of course.

One option:  cut the tiller (reshape it a little if you want) and add a tiller extention.  Racing dingies commonly have these.  My old Hobie 16 had a telescoping version.  That way, you can be just about anywhere in the cockpit of the boat and still steer the boat.  When you are packed in like sardines, you can turn the extension around, out of the way.

Another option:  maybe just an addition to the above, is to wedge the aft end of the tiller so that it's lifted slightly in order to clear knees.  That would be pretty easy to do, too.

Although the wheel could look cool, IMHO "keep it simple" is a good principle in sailing.

Any other ideas are welcome.

[Paul]

In re-reading my post, I would like to clearify the cutting issue.  Remove the tiller from the rudder, cut from that aft end.  If you measure carefully, you could cut at the correct angle to achieve the lift mentioned, as well.  That way, the forward end of the tiller looks proper.

[ilbuildit]

Thanks for the suggestions!  As much as I like the look and feel of the tiller, I also want it gone. I have thought a bit about the ideas you mention, and played around with the tiller while changing tack (like lifting it up in the air while shifting seats)trying to figure a way to get it out of the way and even thoughts of shortening it. Being a fabricator I look forward to the challenge of making this work! You are absolutely correct in keeping it simple, it must also fit the look of the boat and not detract from the simple design of the 16. I don't want a big honking machine thing hanging from the transom and like mgoller suggested that it could be put back to original if needed. Couple of ideas I have is based off of ring and pinion and rack and pinion designs in smaller versions of course. Geared like a mountain/road bicycle. Small gear in front (Or off the steering wheel in this case) and larger gear at the rudder. Steering wheel would be 18 to 20 inches in diameter. I made a prototype wheel to get the size to fit the boat. I believe these key designs will enable the easy use of the wheel and rudder in all conditions. Now to put it all together in a compact way (no pun intended) to look good on the boat. I will keep everyone posted on the progress of this but I might be running out of time for this years testing. Within four to six weeks it will be snowing here in the Colorado Mountains and that will change everything. I did want to mention if mgoller is reading this, I couldn't find the photo of the wheel on the CP-19 (#33) you mentioned. If you could help me out with that I greatly appreciate it.

[Crabcop]

I too, am fairly new to my cp-16. I do, however, have many years experience operating and repairing power boats. (I know, blasphemy!)  I think a simple solution would be to use cable steering, like that which is used on small outboard motorboats.  It is a rack and pinion system.  The wheel attaches to a short shaft shaft  on the steering rack, no extension.  The steering rack moves a cable in a housing. The other end of the cable  housing is attached to a fixed point, and the moving cable attaches to the outboard motor. In your case it would be attached to a short lever on the rudder stock.
Sorry I don't have any pictures, but try this url for one manufacturer. (I have no affiliation with any marine parts supplier or manufacturer.)

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com

Good luck,
Joe

[ilbuildit]

  Joe, I received your brainwaves before your reply! I found the steering system you talk about Tuesday evening. This one is Teleflex Maring rack and pinion system called "The Rack" and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

  I like to build and machine things but sometimes it is nice to find something off the shelf and modify it to fit my needs. I have an email into tech support from Teleflex with some technical questions about ratios so hopefully they can answer my questions.

  Thanks for the suggestion.
  Lee...
 

[Crabcop]

Good on you, Lee.  You might also ask them about measuring cable length (if that is a cable system, not hydraulic), as that is not always as straightforward as it looks. Remember to make BIG radius curves in the cable.
  I was thinking that you could mount the tiller arm facing to the rear and have the cable mounted on the outside of the transom.  Gives you a less cluttered cockpit, but trade-off is that it will be easier to damage the system if someone hits you in the stern, might block the boarding ladder or outboard motor mount.  Thinking as I type, maybe that would not be such a good way to route the cable.

Joe

[ilbuildit]

Update on progress! I ordered a rotary steering system that Teleflex manufacturers for power boat steering. I talked with tech support from teleflex and that man was awesome with the information. In past experiences with companies anytime I am using their parts for something other then their intended use they shut down on me with the info. Not Teleflex!!! Told him my intentions and he gave me all the info and answers to my questions without my asking. Told me to use a 16" wheel and that would be fine with no negative input effects from the rudder. This size wheel should be perfect at the transom and small to keep out of the way of the boom rigging when running. I fabricated a 16" wheel from 1 1/2" 6063 aluminum that isn't too skinny and fits your hand comforatable with a truckers knob to aid in the quick steering.

  Now just waiting for the steering system so I can mill the center of the hub and fab up the rest of the system and test it out. My thoughts are to mount this on the transom at the block mounting area for the boom rigging and the blocks will mount to the top of the steering mounting plates so as not to add any holes that don't already exist. Which leads to my question, does anyone know if the two blocks for the boom rigging is mounted in the exact same area on all CP-16's? Or better said, do they use a drill jig to mount them in production?

  Still trying to get this built before the snow flies! We had a dusting of snow at 12,000 feet Saturday so it's getting colder. Stay tuned...

[ilbuildit]

  UPDATE: I would like some input as to things I may not be thinking about. It's funny how difficult it is to modify something such as this on such a small vessel but in the 20 years I have been building cars (Street Rods incl) I never had this much difficulty in planning.

   You can see what I am up to on my 16 at;

www.designsmithfabrications.com
Then click on the "PROJECT SAILBOAT" link. (It's the only link operational at this time.)

 
  Mounting the wheel on the transom would just be in the way of the boom rigging in all different situations. I am going to mount this helm just about a 1/4 of the way back in the cockpit. I still have access to all the rigging for single hand operation without it being in the way. It leaves room for an adult on both sides in the front section and plenty of cabin access. It also will serve as a hand hold when moving about (instead of the boom when the boat heels over when an adult stands up).
  I will mount the compass on top of the helm as well as a switch for the running lights. It has a 16" wheel and the steering system is rotary. It will come out on the port side of the rudder so as not to get in the way of a swim ladder.
  That is the scoop for now. Even though this is mounted in the cockpit area it still is creating much more room than when the tiller is sticking out and I kinda like the look!.

  Again any imput or thoughts would be appriciated.

   Lee...

[KPL]

I like your idea of a wheel.  Did you think about building a marine ply box to house the wheel mechanism like you might find on a catboat?  Like the Horizon Cat (http://com-pacyachts.com/horizoncat.pdf) setup from Compac?

Also,  I noticed you built a nice helm.  I've been wanting to build an alumimum boom gallows/traveller like that on the compac legacy (http://www.gisails.com/boatpictures/legacy/296) as a mod for my 1982 CP16.  Is that something you could fabricate?

Kevin

[ilbuildit]

Thanks for the URL's Kevin. I am going to enclose the entire helm but with aluminum skins and clear powdercoat the whole thing to stop the oxidation and easier to clean.

  I should have the steering wheel finished tomorrow (Wednesday) so I will include those photos on my web site. The whole helm system is really shaping up and the size if fitting my 16 quite well. I was hoping to complete it by Friday after Thanksgiving and test it out on one of the lakes around the Denver area but I don't think this is going to happen.

   As far as building a aluminum gallows for you (KPL). Absolutely I can. I do hope to find online and here in Colorado locally some fabrication work on the sailboats. Getting away from cars and switching things around. Just email me privately through this web site and we can talk more.     

Lee...

[KPL]

It looks like we both have our emails blocked.  Can you email me at klynch@clarkson.edu?

Thanks,

Kevin

[ilbuildit]

Well, It is finally finished. This project came to a halt earlier this year and especially when I bought my Catalina 18. But now I have a buyer for it in Oregon (A legitimate buyer) and had to get it finished. I have new photos on my web site of the completed project if anyone is interested. It can be seen two ways,

To see the whole project (viewed best with widescreen monitor, probably won't be able to view without) go to
www.designsmithfabrications.com and click on the "Project sailboat" link and follow the "Project Helm"  link below the boat description.

To see just the finished helm (can be viewed with and without widescreen monitor) go to
http://www.designsmithfabrications.com/project%20helm%20pg%203.htm

Will be testing this out on Tuesday. Suppose to be 98 degrees so this will be a good day. Thanks for looking.

   Lee...

[DOUG142]

Very interesting,  I have a CP16.  How does it hook up to the rudder?
More pics.
doug142