CP-16 Upwind Evolution

[TrinkaDink]

I haven't owned a CP16 since about 1982.  I thought it was a great boat except for the upwind performance, which I thought was pretty bad.  I tried to do a search for the evolution of the 16.  I wasn't able to find a concise description of the changes that were made to the boat/sail plan, and the effect the changes had on the boats performance.  I vaguely remember that there may have been a larger overlapping head sail, then the addition of a centerboard, and now the Legacy, but I don't have any idea what years the changes were made, and what the changes meant as far as performance.  I'm trying to focus my search for a newer boat, but don't know what years did what.  Thanks kindly.

jim

[carry-on]

I do not have precise answers to your questions, but can give some notion of the changes.
The CP 16 was first built about 1974 and continued until 2002. Total production about 3000 hulls.
The first 16's were a 3/4 fractional rig. The sail dimensions for the original boat as well as the 16II and 16III are shown in the first message on the CP 16 area of this site.
The 16II started about 1984. A bow sprit,one foot, was added and the fractional rig was increases to 7/8. You will see in the specs that the main reduced in size and the jib increase. The idea was to improve the balance.board
The 16II and III are the same hull with some differences in interior trim. The 16II and later also have stainless pulpit, taff rail etc. in place of aluminum on the original.
About 1996/97, the 16XL added a center board within the keel. With the center board down the draft is 42 inches. These models may also include a traveler.
There were a few 16s made called "Raven". This was a masthead rig. I don't think many were made.
Suggest you look at sailingtexas.com. Look at the photo gallery under Com Pac 16 and you can see the changes in pictures over the years.

As to sailing improvements, I am not able to say because I have not sailed other models. My boat is a 1997 with a foiled rudder(big improvement) and quite new sails. The centerboard helps up wind and the traveler is fun to play with, but 45 degrees is as close as I manage to the wind unless I take the jib clew in hand and narrow the slot.

I think you will find most 16 owners are happy with their boat regardless of the model. I like the sprit and associated sail plan, but any model with a solid hull and fittings will be fun.



   

[Duckie]

I'm a brand new CP 16 owner having only one summer on mine.  I have no complaints with the upwind performance of my CP 16 III with a couple of caveats.  If I sail her standing on her feet, she will match most boats in pointing.  Also if I sail her upright, the leeway is noticeable,  but not enough to cause me to alter my coarse or tack more than I think I might otherwise.  I have a foil rudder and can honestly say that the weather helm is quite mild.  After sailing my 16 I am kind of glad that I didn't go with the center board model.  I'm pretty sure that I would grow to resent the complication of a board for performance that I wouldn't necessarily appreciate.  But then again, I am not an experienced sailor by any means. 

Al

[Salty19]

The foiled rudder and good, NEW sails are major performance changers for the 16.  Highly suggest these two things are a minimum for any CP16.
Even after these changes it's still not going to be stellar, but then again the similar size boat that is faster is probably a lot more unstable too, so depends on your level of compromise.

If given the choice to race in a legacy or CP16 that are setup in similar manners, I would take the legacy.  If my budget was tight, I would get an older 16 and make some upgrades.

[kickingbug1]

   im with salty on this one. my 81 cp16 was a poor performer until i got a new mainsail and an ida rudder. i suspect it might have been even better with a new jib. any short boat with a stubby keel will not be stellar upwind but with the new sails and especially the foiled rudder she does alright. when we decided to move up to a larger boat, we bought a catalina 18 but if i would have had the money an eclipse would have been in my garage

[Bob23]

I'll echo Salty and Kick's advice. A foiled rudder and new sails absolutely transformed my 23 into a different boat. In order of preference, get the sails first. Since the 16 is kind of a mini 23 in some ways, the results of those upgrades should be about the same.
Bob23

[JBC]

I haven't sailed a Com Pac 16 with the keel/centerboard arrangement, though I've owned three CP 16s, with the current one being the MK III.  My guess is that the combination would improve upwind performance some.  My Monty 17 had that arrangement and it certainly sailed well upwind.  But I didn't like trailer sailing that boat as much, or raising the mast a lot.  I too think the Legacy would be a more lively sail upwind.

I also owned a Neptune 16 recently (a bit easier to trailer and launch...it's 200 lbs. lighter with a lighter trailer and a swing keel.)  It was a blast upwind, but I didn't really care for it on some other points of sail...especially a broad reach in lighter air.  I discovered it wouldn't track nearly as well as the CP 16/III on the same point of sail...if I pulled the tiller directly in line with the center of the boat, even after adjusting sails, it would develop lee helm.  I kept fidgeting with the tiller to keep the Neptune on track.  I could improve that by pulling up the centerboard some, but on the whole I just like the way the CP 16 behaves all around with just sail adjustments.  Sold the Neptune and am sticking with the 16/III.

Jett

[TrinkaDink]

First off, thanks to everyone for your guidance, it has really helped with my direction.  I have contacted the owner of an 82 CP16 that looks like it is great shape and hope to look at it asap.  I will keep you folks advised on what happens.  I feel that with the possible improvements of sails and foil, I would be more than happy with a CP16/1.  I do like to mess with stuff, so the possibility of adding a bowsprit, masthead rig, etc. could be down the road.  

Anyone try and update a CP16/1 to a /2?

Thanks again.
jim cameron

[BruceW]

You can get a a bowsprit upgrade. My CP 23 has a homemade one by a PO, but Compac sells them.

[MHardy]

Jim,
I have 1983 16/1 and the PO added the CP bowsprit and IDA rudder. I replaced the worn out jib last summer and that made a huge difference.

[carry-on]

MHardy,
Curious about your handrail set up. First I've seen grab rails on a 16 attached to the hatch slides. Great idea to keep the coach roof clear.
How about strength? Are the hand rails through bolted or just screwed into the slides?
Thanks

[mayrel]

Jim,
  We just purchased an 83' CP16.  I noticed you have the same boom gallows as we have. I also noticed what looks like genoa tracks?  I emailed Gerry Hutchins about a bimini top, the photos he sent me showed these same tracks(on either side of the cockpit, on the deck)which they use for an attachment point for the bimini. I like this idea as we can move the top forward to backward, plus it might be necessary to clear the boom gallows?  I've emailed Gerry to see what is included in their bimini top, it's quite expensive at $591 plus shipping.  However, it looks to be high quality.
  I've also read several conflicting comments concerning the Idar/Ruddercraft foiled rudder and moving the jib forward.  These comments are from experienced CP16 sailors concerning the CP16 MK I.  The stock sail plan and rudder are adequate.  The improvement in adding these upgrades is minimal.  The key is to learn how to sail this boat correctly, in light airs and heavier conditions not to over power the boat.  Some have indicated adding a 135 genoa to the CP16 can make a difference primarily in light to medium conditions.  I realize some will disagree with these comments.
  I have not sailed this boat yet, but have owned other small sailboats, to include the Montgomery 15, a fine sailboat.  I was attracted to the CP16 for it's simplicity, larger cockpit, shoal draft keel and overall salty looks.  We're retired and not so interested in performance.  Hull speed is about 5mph so if we can manage that, we'll be happy. Of course, most sailboats will exceed the calculated hull speed in the right conditions and in the hands of an experienced sailor. 
  With all that said, the cost associated with upgrading a CP16 MK I is a bit expensive if there is no significant improvement in performance or handling.  Given every boat is a compromise, learning to work with the boats limitations can be challenging and rewarding.  I don't see any comments about any major design or quality issues; they're well built and perform up to their designed level of performance in stock form.  They're certainly popular and hold their value quite well.  By the way, I had two sailboats with the Idar rudder, the Montgomery 15 and 17.  I also had the stock rudders, so I could compare their effectiveness.  There was very little difference, although the quality build of the Idar was superior to the stock rudder system.  But we weren't racing, just sailing.
  You sure have a fine looking example of a classic CP16 MK I.  Ours is almost as pretty, but I've got time to bring her up to bristol condition....Fair Winds, John

[MHardy]

Carry-on,
The handrails are screwed to the slides, from the underside of the slides. They are plenty strong enough for a hand-hold when going forward on the deck. Also handy for hanging fenders. They came with the boat - another addition by the PO I guess.