Future CP 27/2 Owner with a some CP 27 Q's

[SouthernNomad]

Hello Com-Pac 27 owners! I was wondering if I could pick your brain on a few topics.

I have placed a down payment  with plan of purchasing after survey and sea trial on a 1989 Com-Pac 27/2 in Cape Coral, Fl. Here is the listing...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=2667277&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=kelleyacht&&ywo=kelleyacht&

1. She has been well taken care of through her years and I presently know she is in need of some new antifouling paint and a new main sail. The universal inboard has ~1000 hours on it and has been professionally maintained. All components are presently in working order, but I was wondering what things have come up in when a boat hits this age that need servicing? Perhaps the gears within the wheel steering need to be greased or some electrical components should be upgraded. I am having her surveyed next weekend and I wanted to know of any inherent problems I should look for. After my first visual inspection I didn't find anything unexpected on a 25 year old boat. I have read about some rudder delamination issues on antiquated 27's but not much else. 

2. Where exactly under the cabin sole does the bilge begin and where does it end? I know of the access in from of the companionway steps but I didn't exactly stick my head in there.

3. What is the ballast material?

4. Does the shower drain into the bilge or does it drain overboard?

5. Has anyone converted form alcohol to propane?

Thank you for your time and attention.

[skip1930]

2. Where exactly under the cabin sole does the bilge begin and where does it end? I know of the access in from of the companionway steps but I didn't exactly stick my head in there. Poured cement and maybe some pig iron nearly up to the bottom of the cabin sole. As it cures over the next 88 years the cement slowly turns to concrete. There probably a small void at the stern of the keel, at or under the stairway. Lifting that hatch at the bottom of the stairway should answer all those questions about what is under the floorboards.

3. What is the ballast material? See above.

4. Does the shower drain into the bilge or does it drain overboard? Sorry. Don't have a clue. Guessing the brown water flows overboard through a through-the-hull fitting. Do you see one around the boot stripe. Why would the factory drain it onto a poured slab of cement? Where can it go?

5. Has anyone converted form alcohol to propane? Darn good question. Which is more dangerous? Fires on board are usually an electric problem, lighting off a flammable fuel problem. What none factory electrical equipment has been added and is the install proper?

One concern I would have is how well does the prop shaft packing nut seal? Not that you can easily reach-touch-or see the gland nut behind the engine and gear box. BTW, ever change the gear oil in 1000 hours? I completely service my aeroport equipment every 100 hours. It's cheap insurance.

By the way our USPS boat club this Saturday held a flair and meteor shoot at the yacht club and we put out propane fires bubbling up from pans of water set afire in the parking lot by the fire department and put out by the club members using ABC dry powder extinguishers with fire fighter's coaching.

I look~see'ed at the pictures in the ad and noted a Hindrhollen Nonsuch sail boat in the upper left hand corner of one frame. That's a favorite boat of mine.

skip.

[Allure2sail]

Hi There:
Shower drains into the bilge compartment and gets pumps out by way off the bilge pump. Use a bilge pump switch with an automatic position and a float switch in the lowest point of the bilge. One thing to look at on these boats when purchasing them is the bilge compartment at the bottom of the stairs. If the keel does not get drained every winter the water in it will freeze (I'm in New England) it expands upward and then cracks the floor in the bilge. To stop this from happening a drain should be added to the side of the keel (as low as possible). They are sold at West Marine and other suppliers. It looks like a brass flange, two to three inches in diameter with three mount screws (self tapping) and a screw in pipe plug in the middle of it. When the boat gets pulled for the winter I take the plug out and leave it out for the winter. Be forewarned, the water that pours out is the most foul smelling stuff I have ever smelled, it is nasty, stand clear of it. Good luck in your purchase. The only other thing I can add is the furling system looks like the original factory unit which people on this site aren't found of. I was lucky, on my it boat had been replaced with a Harken. Perhaps someone else on here could comment better on the furling unit. I never had one.
Best of luck
Bruce
S/V Allure

[wes]

Hi Nomad - having spent the past year completely disassembling and restoring a 1988 CP 27/2, I would say you will certainly need to do some basic routine maintenance on the boat's engine and various other systems (including replacing the Edson steering chain/cable assembly) but there are only a few "big deal" items to be on the lookout for:

1. Osmotic blisters below the waterline. Highly likely in a 27 of this age that spent full time in the water, unless you were blessed with a PO that put on an epoxy barrier coat under the bottom paint. I wasn't. You will need a surveyor to check for these. A few quarter-sized blisters (maybe 20 or so) is common and not difficult to repair. A much larger number will be more costly to fix.

2. Small cracks at the corners where the the cabin top meets the foredeck. This is a weak area in the original fiberglass layup, prone to flexing and eventually cracking. It was strengthened in later model 27s but the 1989 is suspect. Look for cracks or amateurish patches, and have the surveyor use a moisture meter to look for water intrusion in the foredeck area.

3. Deterioration of the hull to deck seal behind the rubber rub rail. Pull off the rubber to visually inspect, and look for signs of water leakage inside.

4. Deterioration of the bedding compound under all deck hardware - winches, lifeline stanchions, etc. look for signs of water leakage inside the cabin.

None of these are deal killers, and in fact I'd be amazed if you find a 1989 27 that doesn't have some or all of them. These are very fine boats and well worth repairing, except in rare cases. But the presence of these issues will affect the price you should pay. In descending order of cost and hassle to repair I would put them in this order: 2, 1, 3, 4.

A 27 of this vintage in perfect condition will sell for $20k or a little more. With one or more of these issues the price could easily fall below $10k, maybe well below.

Wes

[Allure2sail]

Hi Wes:
All good points, I was so fixated on the bilge because I had to repair it again (for the third time in six years). I need to tear it all out and rebuild it the correct way (like someone on this site documented).Never had a blister issue but did have to take care of numbers 2,3,and 4.
Fair winds
Bruce
S/V Allure
Swansea, MA

[wes]

Bruce - I imagine the bilge issue may differ by region of the country. Unlike New England, here in NC we almost never get the extreme and prolonged sub-freezing temps that lead to bilge problems. Should have qualified my comments by saying where my boat is located!

Wes

[deisher6]

Hey SouthernNomad:
I have seen the boat on the net and wondered about it.  Looked like a fair deal hope that you are happy with it.

Our '27 was a charter boat for a while and had a pump in the port under seat storage locker that pumped shower tray directly out a through hull.  So that can be done.  I have no problem with the shower draining into the bilge so I have reverted to the original system.

Wes is right on with his advice.  I would add that you do not have to do all the stuff at once, you can sail the boat and work the maintenance in when there is down time.  I still have steering (next on the list) then cutlass bearing and rudder next time out of the water, on the BIG item list of stuff to do.  In the mean time I sail as much as possible.

When our boat was on the hard a nearby sailor with a Crealock 37 recommended that I coat the propeller with indelible black magic marker.  He claimed that it prevented fowling.  I checked to make sure that he in fact marked up his prop before I did the same to mine, which I did. (=;   I can report that after 6 months in the Neuse the prop is still clean.  It's is something to consider when your boat is out of the water.

Best of Luck
regards charlie

[SouthernNomad]

Thank you all for your replies. I had the boat surveyed this weekend and followed it with a sea trial. When we hauled it we discovered many blisters on the hull. The large ones were very sparse and were circled with chalk by the surveyor ( total: 3, one being around the engine intake thru hull) the rest were numerous penny sized blisters. It was disheartening to see but the surveyor said it by no means was the end. If negotiated and bought he recommended when hauling it to power wash and sodium blast the haul. Next, grind out the blisters and let the hull dry out. After fill in the blisters with _____ and sand it so the repaired blisters are flush with the hull. Finally have the yard put on a barrier coat and then the anti-fouling pant.
After the haul out we continued with the survey and found a handful of very minor fixes, but what we did find, that Wes had mentioned, was some moisture in the foredeck.
After the surveyor completed his job and left I had the opportunity to sail/deliver the boat back to the slip where the owner keeps it. During those 4 hours we sailed and motor sailed on the ICW. I was at the helm 90% of the time feeling out the boat under all points of sail and under power. Once back at the slip the owner ran me through all the components of the boat. It was really cool.
Presently I am in tune with delsher6 in thinking I can take care of these issues one at a time and enjoy the boat for what it is. I will receive the surveyors report in a few days and counsel him over its details. In the mean time I am also going to get a quote from the marine yard in my area (St. Pete, FL) on the fixing the blisters on the hull. I figure, once its hauled, I can grind out and repair all the blisters myself (I want to get my hands dirty and learn a thing or two) and have the yard apply the barrier coat and antifouling paint while I watch since it would be my first time having that done. I intend to take that quote and deduct it from the agreed purchasing price with the broker to renegotiate the purchase.
What do you all think of that sort of plan? How would one attend to the moisture in the foredeck (starboard of the forward hatch)?
Any recommendations?

Once again, thank you for your time and attention.

[MacGyver]

I can tell you from a repairmans point of view, that Blisters, EASY.
Repair with West System's 105/205 and product called 404. Mix to a peanut butter consistancy and fill them in after the proper grinding of them open and drying out.

Some small ones will actually dry out into other larger ones. Blisters on a boat are interesting, typically coming from damage somewhere on the boat, an are compromised by many different events, like cracks, or full on damage.

As far as the deck goes, I would have to look at pictures of a 27 to remember, but the key is to see where is the possibility of water intrusion, and then fix that, keeping in mind the bigger problem as well. Sometimes those areas will dry out with the aid of damp rid, or other items like a dehumidifier put in the boat for a while. All dependant on the build of the boat.

But the main thing is to identify the problem first, then work from that. Typically the moisture stems from a fitting needing resealed, or a hatch, etc. some bigger projects can be avoided just by letting them work themselves out slowly.

Mac

[wes]

Nomad - I've wrestled with the CP 27 foredeck water problem myself - it's common among boats of this vintage. Take a look at my post here, starting about halfway down the page.

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6204.60

A full repair, including reinforcing the area to prevent future cracks, is messy and expensive (several thousand $) if you are paying boatyard rates. Because Hutchins used foam core in this area (not balsa) you could simply choose to do nothing; the foam core may be soaking wet but it won't rot like wood. I think this repair is beyond the capability of most sailors who don't have extensive experience with fiberglass repair. That includes me.

Wes

[Awfeith]

Welcome to the family. Good luck with your purchase. I had the same blister issue on our previous boat a Hunter 34. Almost a month from start to finish with the drying time. Thankfully our 96  CP27 does not have those issues. Where are you planning to keep her moored?   André

[SouthernNomad]

Thank you for the blister and moisture advice. I will update you all when I haul her out. Tomorrow I pay for the boat and provision her for I am delivering her this weekend from Cape Coral to Saint Petersburg Florida with my father! Should be an unforgettable time... I have a slip reserved at St. Pete municipal marina where I will begin to move onto her over the next few weeks. As soon as she is safe in her slip, I am selling my furniture and purging myself of the few possessions I own that won't be coming with me on the boat. Good times

I gotta figure out how to post some photos up here for you all...

[bmiller]

Hello SouthernNomad, I'm a former 27 owner who loved my boat, you have a good one. Lot's of good advice so far from knowledgeable owners. MY boat had a propane cooktop and it worked great. The cylinder was stored under the helm seat, it required raising the seat a bit. If you do it make sure to put in a solenoid to shut off the gas when not in use. Here is a photo of the cooktop:


Good luck with the boat and if you decide to dive into the bilge and rebuild it let me know. I did it and can give some first hand info.

[SouthernNomad]

Gentlemen!

A year has come and gone since I posted this thread. I am finally preparing for a haul out to fix the blisters (West Systems), barrier coat (West Systems), and bottom job (Trinidad). I plan on following West Systems product project manual to the t and I have a couple questions some of you may be able to help me with.

1. I am looking for the right tool. I am in need of a 1000-2000 RPM Sander/Polisher. I intend to use it to sand through the remaining bottom paint and gelcoat to the laminate. I also would like to use it as well to compound, wax and polish the hull above the waterline.

2. What paint should I use for the brown bootsripe just above the waterline?

3. What respirator should I use for all this messiness?

This is a labor of love...

[relamb]

I posted my info about the sander on the other post about my bottom paint. http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=8010.msg63766#msg63766 .
However, if I were doing this again, NO WAY would I sand the bottom myself.  Putting on the barrier coat and bottom paint was easy.  Stripping off the old stuff was dirty, nasty, slow, painful, and just plain awful.    Take it to Sailors Wharf or one of the places on Salt Creek and have them strip it, then you can do the rest yourself easily.  Sailor's Wharf has some new fancy water blaster stripping gizmo that eliminates all the dust and contains the waste.
So far the only issue with mine - there's one small spot that the bottom paint is peeling off the barrier coat.  There are two causes I can guess.  A) that place happened to be wiped with an oily rag or something (I had a lot of various rags around, including many with motor oil on them) so the paint didn't stick, or B) there's a window of time between the epoxy cure and the ability to apply bottom paint without sanding.  Maybe I got the epoxy a little to hot and it cured faster in that one spot, or I started there first and painted there last, and the window of time was exceeded.  It's  a very small area.  I'll just sand it a little and touch up the bottom paint.

I had no blisters to repair, the original barrier coat did it's job.  I did however, have a few dings through the gelcoat into the fiberglass in the forefoot of the keel and back of the rudder.  Somebody had just touched some rocks or seawall or something.  This was filled with epoxy and sanded fair, before applying the barrier coat.

I should have thought to call you, I was in St Pete this past weekend, I'd like to see your boat.
Rick