Outboard got gunk in the carb, help me troubleshoot

[BruceW]

Hi, folks.

I just bought a Com-pac 23, and needed a motor to go with it, so I bought a used Suzuki 6 hp 4 stroke outboard from my dealer. It started first pull, seemed fine. He said it was about a year old, and it looked really good.

First time out, I started it right up, and it ran great. Oh, by the way, I had bought NEW Gasoline, non-ethanol, from a station near the turn to the clubs that sells and advertises they have it.

About an hour in, the motor died. I could get it to fire, but not stay going. I could limp it a little longer with choke.

I tried internal tank as well, although I had been using external. I also switched to spare external tank, and the gasline was also new.

So, anyway, I took the motor back, and the dealer has suspected the gas I bought. I just received a quick email from him about the motor being ready.

I am sure when I call I can ask him for more details.

I have some reservations about using the gas I bought. Is there an innocuous way to test? That is, can I run the motor in the barrel of water for x time, to see if the issue was in fact old gas deposits that got dissolved or flushed with the new gas?

thanks!

[wes]

Based on similar experience, I suspect you may have clogged jets. Mine got clogged due to debris in the tank and fuel hose (alcohol contributes to the debris by attacking the hose and rubber parts). A new tank and gas line, and a carb cleaning, took care of my problem. I'm now a religious user of Sta-Bil Marine in every tank of fuel. At the tiny rate of fuel consumption, my bottle of Sta-Bil has lasted three years and counting.

Wes

[skip1930]

Same o` same o` Fuel delivery is everything ... everything! Not spark, not compression, not timing. All this is basically non-adjustable and electronic anyway.
Some spark is a scavenger system with a continuous spark at the plugs. Subaru does this trying to meet emissions. No pre ignition because of precise fuel injector openings.

Figure out and understand the fuel delivery path. If you have to, draw a picture. Internal tank, external tank, fuel lines, selector valve, one way valves in the fuel lines, uni directional fuel filters, diaphragms within the pulse activated fuel pumps, float and float shut-off valve, fuel level, air and low and high speed fuel metering jets, and internal drilled pathways within the carburetor body.

On the internet find and copy your engine and the exploded view of the engine and carburetor parts. This will be necessary for reassembly.  

The title line states gunk in the carb maybe it's as simple as that.
No amount of fresh non ethanol fuel will clean gunk from the carburetor's bowel, jets, and pathways.
The skipper needs to 'get in there and clean it out'.

Somewhere along the line the previous gasoline with ethanol in it has absorbed water and has phased out and separated as fuel evaporated leaving gunk in it's wake.

Side Bar: When a bottle of HEAT is added to the car's fuel tank ... that's alcohol and it's in there to absorb water from condensation and keep a slug of water from freezing, keeping a fuel blockage from occurring. Good for carburetors but ineffective for high pressure fuel injectors.

I'd suggest that several specialized tools be place in the ship's tool bag. Disassembly may have to be done on the water.
Aside from the normal nut and screw drivers for this Suzuki 6 hp 4 stroke outboard engine, tools to open up and clean the carb will be necessary.

Figure that the small parts can and will go overboard or drop down inside the outboard castings. Fill these voids with paper towels or clean rags. Put these under whatever your unscrewing. Nuts, washers, screws, plugs and jets can be caught in the towels.  Include in the tool bag;

~A tiny, small round magnet on a 6 inch flexible spring with a comfortable screw driver handle.
~An expanding spring loaded flat blade screw driver to expand into the screw driver slot and capture the jet.
~Same thing but one that wraps around the fuel jet. Holding the jet into the slot.
~Some 'fuzzy' pipe cleaners and various sizes of wire to chase bores. [pull out one strand from a piece stranded electric wire]
~A can of carb cleaner with a 'straw' discharge.

If everything is pristine clean then a good guess is fagged out diaphragms in the many different layers of the pulse activated pulse fuel pump. Buy and install a rebuild kit on the table at home.

If none of this works look at the fuel delivery plug-in-to-the-fuel tank stuff for fuel out/air in problems.

Understand that all these problems occur in my opinion because outboard engine manufactures are under the gun to create clean running and low emissions engines without catalytic converters. [these may be mandated by the EPA soon.]

skip.

[BruceW]

Wes,

Well, I had a new gasline hose, and used the same tank I had been using before on different motor.

On phone, dealer said he found a lot of gunk in the internal tank after he cleaned the carb, and so he took the tank out, cleaned it out, re-cleaned carb, and it runs great on internal tank.

I had only used the internal tank to start the motor to see if it started when I bought it. My issue came upon use of the external tank I mentioned above.

Dealer didn't use my gas or external tanks. He suspects them, and I see why, although, I suppose the gunk could have been there and got stirred up when I put gas in the internal to start it.

I believe I am stuck with needing to check out my tanks and the gas I bought. Or, taking the easy way, I could just dump the gas, clean the tanks, and start over with new gas.

Dealer says go ahead and use ethanol gas in internal tank; manual says not to, so I'm going with not.

[BruceW]

Skip,

the carb is now cleaned out, and so is the internal tank. Next step, use internal tank if I can, with some new gas I get for spare gas on the trip.

It's about 4 hours of motoring, or less time motoring if I can sail too.

In parallel, I can pick up the tank, dump the gas, eyeball the tank for gunk, and clean it out, then start over with new gas in external.

I did read between the lines of your post further on; interesting, but a bit over my abilities to do all that. Some, maybe.

[skip1930]

Take the external tank [it's not metal is it? My buddies Suzuki metal fuel tank rusted the bottom out on his CP-19. It's plastic now ] dump some gas in there, cap it and shake it up, dump the gas out, do it again.

The uni-directional fuel filter with the engine should strain the particulate out of the fuel. If these are removed and reinstalled or replaced backwards they won't flow.

Take the old one. Blow through it. And then a new one. You'll feel the difference.

skip.

[BruceW]

External tank is plastic. I have another plastic one that was new, but didn't fit well with my last boat. It's set up as a spare for long trips.

I have both of these nearly full with new non-ethanol gas; I suppose I need to:

a. dump this gas, and clean the tanks, or
b. evaluate the gas somehow, and proceed if it is okay.

[skip1930]

Dump the gas in your car. Any gas [gas/oil mix] left at the end of the season goes down the long necked transmission funnel into my gas tank on the Expedition.

Fill the boat tank with no ethanol fuel [if you still have a season] and be done with it.

" I take it there's not a risk to the car? "  What, a couple of gallons diluted with 30 gallons? No worry. Any oil mix? No different then an old car engine sucking engine oil past enlarged clearances.

skip.

[BruceW]

That was my original plan before the dealer questioned the gas. I take it there's not a risk to the car?

[MacGyver]

I change my fuel every month on the boat, dumping the old into the truck. I have never dumped fuel mix into the truck because of fuel injection and my mechanic (a big gear head, my age (32) and a all around cool guy, runs his own automotive shop for 8 years now including heavy equipment) has said just dump what little mixed I have in the drive way or something.

I am going to pull the fuel out of my generator that is about 6 months old and dump that into my truck....... but I wonder if I should because i really dont need truck issues either.......

Oddly, my grandpa leaves gas in all of his stuff for months without issue, and always buys 87 octane with ethanol, with no issues.
his generator went over a year and started with no problem..........I doubt I have his luck....

My thoughts agree with my mechanic buddies ideas, when the injector injects the fuel into the cylinder, the mix doesnt include oil. so why purposefully introduce it?
I have in the past dumped it out in small amounts to start fires. but you have to be very careful doing that obviously.  I do however use the premix in my lawn mower that really doesnt use premix, but is much easier to change a spark plug on.

Mac

[BruceW]

Well, first I think I'll shake the external tanks, pour off some gas from each into a glass jar, let it settle, and see if it has "stuff" in it.

I don't need any stuff added to any motor I have. Of course, it's several gallons, because I stocked up in case I needed it.

Otherwise, I don't keep a lot of gas around either.

We'll see if and when I get some decent weather to try this again. Soon, I hope.

[skip1930]

My 83, soon to be 84 year old 1930 Ford Model 'A' has the tank filled to the brim with regular old ethanol fuel to limit the formation of condensation.
The car sits 6+ months a year in sub zero temperature in a metal building. I do not disconnect the 6 volt positive ground battery. And there is no trickle charger on the battery.

To start. Take it off the jack stands, turn the key to 'On', open the fuel tank valve under the dash [ allows fuel to flow through the settling bowel to the fuel bowel ], twist the mixture screw to richen the mixture, full retard, half throttle, step on the starter button, and at the same time pull the mixture screw out and in as fast as possible to give her a little choke and the engine fires after 1 and one half turns. Advance the timing a little. As it warms up, close the mixture down to lean her out. Drive around aimlessly for the rest of the summer.

Since the fuel system is a non corroding tank, brass and copper fittings, no rubber/plastic parts in the line or carburetor, no fuel filter but a fine mesh metal screen filter and setting fuel bowel there has never been any fuel problem or ethanol related problem after the 9 years I have owned it. All gaskets and seals are paper. Total body off~frame up rebuild of all 5,300 parts making up this car. [I can't figure out how to take this pic from facebook to Photobucket I order to ascertain the direct code for CPYOA].


skip.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151599344386098&l=bc04a06e3a

http://s259.photobucket.com/user/1930fordroadster/slideshow/What%20To%20Do%20If%20Your%20Model%20A%20Stops

[BruceW]

Picked up the motor today; it had little rusty pieces of metal in the carb and lines. Since these are magnetic, the guy stuck a magnet into my tanks and also found the filings in there. I guess that's consistent with the theory of my new gas being bought from the bottom of the tank and getting impurities in it.

I found a filtering funnel online that says it can deal with impurities. Maybe if I get any more gas there, a gallon at a time, I'll filter it as I go.

So, I'll try just bringing some gas with me to add to the internal tank as I need it on the trip. I'll see about filtering the gas I have in my external tanks once I get back, and have time. Then clean out the tanks, make sure no iron pieces are left.

I'm very angry about this; not sure what I can do about it though, other than try my best to prevent it in the future.

[skip1930]

Cow Magnets come to mind.

Buy a magnet or two and drop it into the bottom of the plastic external tank. Might drop one into the internal tank too. [Tie a line on them if you want.]
Go to a paint/hardware store and buy a couple of 60 cent paper paint filters. The mesh varies. Buy the finest. Put/lay the paper filter into a standard filter. Pour through it.

Who cares what's in the tank after that? Your running a paper fuel filter under the O/B cover, right ?

Just between you, me and the fence post my O/B is fitted with an internal fuel tank and controlled by a one way valve. Plus the internal/external selector valve.
I had reason to suspect the one way valve so I did away with that. I keep the internal tank empty because without that one way valve, the internal tank drains it's contents into the external tank.

skip.

Watching the video you provided below, I see the filter material works on osmosis. Molecules larger then a gasoline molecules stay up stream of the filter, pure gasoline passes through the filter. Eventually the filter if it's doing it's job will have to be back flowed or tossed and a new filter screwed in. It will do the job.

I'm guessing that the 1/4 turn selector valve leaks internally. Cycle it open/closed/open/closed about 20 times to clean it out. Still not functioning? Unscrew it, open it up, clean it, reassemble the valve. Or buy a new one.

[BruceW]

I followed most of that, not all.

I need to slow it down for myself:

a. get the magnets and put them in the tank to draw the metal to them.
b. please go more step by step on the paper filters.
c. I understand the valve between settings is not really that good. These guys said they kept getting gas to go from one to the other.

I really just want the gas to work, and am willing to pour the gas through the funnel filter I got, to go into a gas can; then pour out of that through the funnel filter again into the gas tank, either internal or external.

here's the link, I hope, to the funnel filter I bought: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200578787_200578787.