Looking for the answer to limited free time vs getting time on the water

[Westcoast DAD]

Quick summary
I have two young kids which have greatly impacted our ability to get out on the water. Before kids the wife and I raced on San Francisco Bay owned a U20 for many years loved doing the summer lake trips etc.
We sold the U20 given it was just too much work and time to drop the rig - pack up - set up etc. We also own a Ericson 28 kept in the water but its over an hour away and so far we have not made it out to the boat as much as we should.

This next year if we can't seem to find a way to get more time on the E28 I want to possible small boat options with fast set up such as the Cat tip up rigs as a possible solution sorted out.

I have connected with Dick Herman and we will eventually cross paths so I can check out his Sun Cat and maybe get a chance to sail a bit with him.
I'm not too concerned about speed given from all that I have been able to sort out the compac Cats more or less sail about as fast as our Ericson 28 which is far from a speed machine. 5knots is pretty much the norm and 6-6.5knots with the cruising Asymmetric up in 25knots of breeze if I feel like donning the racing gloves and risking breaking something. Under power flat out - in flat zero wind conditions the E28 does about 5-5.5 knots its a bit under powered with the 12hp Universal.

My bigger questions are about set up time maybe the things folks have done to make their time from trailer to water and back as short as possible. Also seating room in the cockpit given we have 4 and occasionally like to squeeze another couple aboard. This has me thinking Horizon Cat for a larger cockpit that and I really like our current inboard diesel in the E28 after years and years of futzing with stern hung OB's on the racing boats.
Also it would be great to hear about both the Sun Can and the Horizon cat regarding speeds. Typical easy going sailing speeds vs wind conditions? The Horizon Cat motoring speeds? Will it do 5knots at a lazy 2200-2400rpm? What speed will it motor if you whip the Yanmar a tad and run it at 2800-3000 rpm? I find that a sailboats motoring ability when your not racing and just family cruising and having fun adventuring is just as important as your ability to sail the boat.

The major attraction that caught my attention was of course the fast tip up rigs on the cat boats. My U20 had a carbon rig and a solo set up effort by a very experienced owner hustling it was about 40 minutes, when you have young kids thats about 40 minutes too long. Future use would be short local sails on small local lakes, the occasional SF Bay trip, maybe the occasional fun mini cruise with our club, possibly one summer trip to Lake Tahoe exploring the lake and staying in a rented house with dock etc.

Dad ie me - I enjoy singled handed sailing I raced the U20 single handed a number of times I don't see my self racing a CAT but if the very random chance were to surface the Compac Cat's seem as if they would provide a very unique experience and no doubt a few double takes with a very grand last boat arrival LOL at least in my neck of the woods, and my prior reputation on the U20. Many people who know me would probably ask if I fell and hit my head or had some sort of mental lapse seeing me show up in a Cat boat. LOL Given they are very RARE as in pretty much never seen which I'm OK with. My old boat was always a major attraction given it was far different than what most people were sailing. The added salty look and some what more cruisy capability vs the sporty and very light U20 is something I would actually enjoy after nearly 20yrs racing around on the U20.
The quick tip up rigging effort would also make it very easy to store locally here by the house vs 40 minutes away at the club - which would translate to far more chances of snagging the boat and simply hitting the lake for an hour or two vs 40 minutes to the club go sailing on the Bay then 40 minutes home etc.


Ok one last thing.. Does anyone use the Euro style sail pack set up on the boom? Think canvas bag with a zipper that runs across the top- the main when doused simply falls into the bag and you zip it up? When raising the sail you simply unzip and hoist? Yes that is all part of my thought that going from trailer to water and sailing is no more than a couple of minutes.

I look forward to your feedback regarding seating room, sailing and motoring speeds and the time from trailer to water and water to trailer.

Thank you!!!
SF Sailor looking for a solution to having almost zero time to go sailing these days.

[Craig]

Welcome WCDad. You came t the right place. We own a Horizon Cat  and previously owned a Suncat. Both are extremely easy to rig. Ten to fifteen minutes max trailer to water. The HC has more cockpit space. Suncat can handle four but is tight. Wheel steering on HC  makes a big difference with 4 plus. We have the diesel version and love it. Others may prefer ob version. Regarding speed under power and sail: 2400 rpm gets me about  5+ kts,full throttle gets me close to 7 kt in fairly flat water although the stern does squat a bit! (We have the 14 hp Yanmar). Under light winds (5-7 kt) we get 3-4 kt  depending on point of  sail. Ten+kt gets us pretty much to hull speed of 5+ kt. These speeds are conservative and are SOG by gps. The HC is very stable and sails flat and dry. I have found the HC tacks more smartly than the Suncat and rarely misses stays even in very light air. Generally turns in her own length and carries well with power off(nice when docking or putting on trailer). The HC is no speed demon but is better in light air than the  Suncat although once the wind gets above 10 kts the difference is negligible. Neither is a speedster but they are not slugs either! All in all we have been happy with both boats and loved both. The extra weight of the HC does make for a smoother ride in chop. The extra weight does require a more robust tow vehicle  but we tow our HC with a 4 cyl RAV 4 with no problems(we are in Fl with few hills) Re rigging:we have a Mack Pack with integral lazy jacks. Sail drops into cover, zips up. We also have a Boomkicker in lieu of a topping lift. IMHO along with the Mack Pack,the greatest thing since sliced bread!  Yes, a stopping lift works well and is cheaper but the combo makes raising and dousing sail singlehanded(or with a full cockpit!) a cinch! Having no trauma with guests aboard......Priceless! Which boat you choose depends on your needs/use. Both the Suncat and the Horizon  are fantastic boats and relaxing to sail. I love catboats for their ease of handling and seaworthiness, the same virtues that made them the superb workboats chosen by those old New England sailors. If you choose either you will not be disappointed. Hope this is helpful in your quest!

[Westcoast DAD]

Great feed back. MacPac system is pretty much standard  equipment in Europe. That's where I discovered them back in 06. Thank you for taking the time to share some performance details.

[Craig]

By the way both, the Suncat and the Horizon Cat draw a lot of attention and compliments! They do stand out of the crowd! 

[Subsailor637]

I would second Craig's comments.  I have not owned a Suncat but just purchased a new Horizon Cat this year after looking at both models over the past two years.  The Horizon Cat gets you the extra room to have a couple of guests aboard without feeling cramped and has a good sized cabin for storage and even a comfortable overnight if one wanted.  Don't know if I would want to tow this boat with a Rav 4 as I feel my Honda Odyssey is under sized for this boat with the diesel package.  I kept mine at a permanent slip all summer and just used the car to put the boat in and haul out for storage at the same marina.  I am looking for a larger SUV or truck for upcoming trips.  I previously had a Catalina 34 and I can truly say I really enjoyed the HC this summer.  The boat is easy to set up and sail but the gaff rig is a new challenge to master so I am learning something new every time I go out.  I think you would be very happy with an HC!

[Westcoast DAD]

I have lots of towing experience with a number of trailers no doubt the Horizon Cat is on the heavy side for any tow vehicle that has a max towing limit of 5000lbs let alone the typical 3500lb limit seen with the older Rav 4's and the mini vans.
The U20 all up with trailer was just shy of 2000lbs with nothing but sails - 2hp honda and basic required sailing gear. Towed great but even for the Land cruiser at times it was approaching the limits given the outside temps, climbs or head winds etc.

We own a 4.7L V8 Toyota Sequoia now which the Horizon Cat based on the some what large range of all up weight would still tip in on the heavy end of the 6400lb max capacity. With fuel, diesel, cruisy stuff on board + two axle trailer the Horizon cat is running in the 4000+LB range behind the tow vehicle.


Any chance there are any pictures circulating around of the Mack Pack set up on the Horizon Cat?
Also Craig - are you able to keep the sail stowed ie bagged in the Mack Pack in trailer mode enabling you to just tip up the rig - unzip the bag and your off and running?

Probably two major points for me is the quick tip up rig and presumably being able to keep the sail stowed on the boom so trailer to water is just a matter of minutes. This would help open up sailing options I don't have today by allowing us to keep the boat at the house essentially and allow us to even just run over to our small local lake 12 minutes away splash the boat and go for sail for an hour. Not really possible with my Old U20 which was a 40 minute rig and tear down on both ends on and off the trailer. Also by having the boat close by we could also haul it an hour by truck splash it and explore some of the great tributaries we have around the SF Bay such as the Petaluma River trip - Napa River, Delta and even Tomales Bay all very easy short weekend or even a full day trip vs our big boat would require a 3 day weekend at best to get from the Marina to these areas not counting Tamales Bay which is more or less not accessible to sailboats except by boat ramp.

Then of course there is Lake Tahoe and a few of our other lakes we enjoy visiting.

Pretty sure the Horizon Cat would be the better choice due to the space for butts in the cockpit and the added room for the occasional overnight or micro cruise effort. The inboard diesel is sort of the Icing on the Cake I love the 2hp honda we have on our Avon Red Crest but I've spent 25yrs dealing with stern hung OB's and the last 8yrs owning the 28footer with a diesel. I absolutely LOVE having the little diesel it which case having one in the Horizon Cat makes it the total package in my view.

This is just an early research effort next spring I'll work on snagging a ride on a Sun Cat or possibly even get lucky and find a Horizon Cat owner in California and thumb a ride to check it out. Wife would need to see it and get out on it and approve before we would sell our RV on the water the Ericson 28. But the last couple of years I really thing the trailer pocket cruiser is probably the best fit for our interests.

[Westcoast DAD]

Sorry couple more questions

Does the Sun cat or Horizon Cat have a proper anchor locker in the bow? Or is it back to canvas bag with anchor gear hauled up out of a stern locker?

Last question - bilge I'm going to assume that the Cats have some sort of bilge set up I spotted a comment about concrete, guessing this is poured into the bottom of the deep hull either to the sides of the centerboard slot or possibly at the ends front and back? Never owned a boat with concrete in the bilge before I know it was pretty common practice way back in the day with the working boats.

Anyone have pictures of the bilge set up or even just the center board mode of operation? I found one video clearly proud new owner splashing his new cat and it appeared there was some type of lever or line in the center of the cockpit floor to raise and lower the center board - the video was taken from a distance so I couldn't tell what he was fooling with but it appeared based on the audio discussion that he was lowering the board etc.

[Westcoast DAD]

One more thing if anyone knows of a Horizon Cat owner in California please let me know or send em to this thread on the forum. I don't buy expensive toys without getting a chance to meet other owners. In the case of sailboats a proper sail to see what the boats are like.

I'm not opposed to talking to a Yacht Broker but typically they want you to commit to buying a boat you know nothing about I don't operate that way with boats. ;-)

[Westcoast DAD]

If any of you owners like posting videos on youtube I would say the number one thing lacking regarding Horizon Cat info are videos of the nuts and bolts side of the boat. Showing the stern lockers, seating room in the cockpit, length of the settee's in the cabin- the storage options in the cabin, the mechanicals engine access, battery box set up, typical radio location (rig antenna or stern rail?) pressure water system or foot pump, rudder hardware and set up, centerboard hardware / operation.

Sail outhaul, boomvang, hoist and sheeting system.

The sort of stuff boat owners like to dig into and see to get a sense of the boat how its put together and its functionality etc.

The first thing I do when I see a boat I'm curious about is start digging into the lockers and fooling with the mechanicals to get a sense how its been built and how things work. LOL

Craig any chance your savy with recording video? The Mack Pack system in action would be very cool to see I bet a few Cat owners would be ordering them if they saw what we were talking about ;-)

Thanks a bunch you guys!
I'm off to get some work done then fingers crossed one last weekend of Kitchen Remodel work and I might get a haul pass to go see if my E28 is still floating in the slip.

[BobK]

There are quite a few video's for Horizon Cat in you tube.  One called "Bill's horizon cat" shows a bunch.
BobK

[Craig]

Whew! Lots of questions. Yes, one can fold  the mast with the sail in the Mack Pack. Lots of storage, cockpit seat lockers,under bunk storage. HC has anchor storage on bowsprit with rode storage locker forward via standard equip. hawse pipe. Not sure about bilge question?? Concrete ballast is not an issue. Bilge is same as other boats. Concrete is glassed over. Re Mack Pack pix, I have many pix but posting on this site is a PIA compared to others(admin take note!!) requiring an account on an external site. Let me see what I can do. Sequoia should be adequate unless you are doing a lot of inter-mountain hauling! Check YouTube for videos. Many available. Bunks are comfy for me(6'2"). HC has 2 sinks both hand pumped. Launch time as I mentioned in previous post is 10 min, 15 max. Mast takes 1 minute to raise and secure. 

[Westcoast DAD]

Thank you everyone for your answers and ideas.

BTW - Gerry H responded to an email I sent asking for some more details on the Horizon cat regarding cockpit and bunk size info.

I did actually make it out to our Ericson 28 this weekend it was still floating!!! And managed to go for a Jib only sail with our two little one's on board. For those who don't know sailing jib only is called "Wanking". A cat sailor does not risk being called a "Wanker" when sailing with only one sail ;-)

BTW the Horizon cat bunks are 82 inches long 18.5 inches wide at the narrowest point at the bow end of the bunk and over 27 inches wide at the widest part right around where the companion way sits even with the bunks.

The cockpit basic numbers are
73inches stern to cabin back -  seats depth (seatback to edge of seat) 18.5 inches - width of cockpit floor ie between the benches is 26inches. This gives you a good sense of seating room in the cockpit.

For a 20footer these numbers are pretty good. Our 12ft wide 28ft Ericson has a 8ft cockpit but it has a T shaped cockpit and wheel which eats into the cockpit space leaving more or less about the same cockpit seating room the Horizon cat has which is pretty much all usable space with the wheel mounted at the back of the cockpit at the stern.

[Salty19]

Having just pulled the CP19 for the season, the dreaded clean-up routine has commenced and got me thinking about how much easier the 16 was to maintain.

Seems to take about twice as long as it did on the 16. More stuff to store, more fiberglass to clean/wax, more interior to vacuum and wipe down, more wood to varnish, heavier motor to remove, more difficult to get on deck and more of it, etc.
Then the diesel would involve more winterization depending on where you live.

I would think a Suncat would be a lot easier to maintain, clean, wax,etc than a HC being someone similar proportionally to my experiences with the 16/19?   

Either way, I think you're making a very good decision as both boats should be quick and easy to get going.

[Westcoast DAD]

No winter packing up here we sail year around.