Mast tuning

[Banana Cakes]

Hey guys got a interesting question, a question that will test the inner engineer in all of us... so I have been sailing Banana Cakes literally everyday and has been quite a pleasure and definitely a upgrade from my previous sailboat. So yesterday I was sailing and I found some super strong wind and she was heeling over pretty far. I read 35degrees. Its not ideal and if I had someone else on board I woyld have definitely reefed the main. I reefed the jib and that was helpful but the real question is when she was heeling I felt as if she was dragging the stern way too much and as physics showed, water began entering the boat thru the cockpit drain because of the angle of the pitch of the sailboat. In airplanes we use trim tabs as we would use the turnbuckles on the shrouds or stays.

So here are the questions (FINALLY!!!)
1) I think I have too much rake on the mast, if so could that be a culprit to my problems?
2) Tightening the Jib Stay would make less rake in turn making the bow more level with the stern?
3) Does anybody know the tension setting for the standing rigging?  I most definitely do not want to over stress the mast that would cause a lot of problems..

Thanks again for all the help and I have everyone at dock 3 at Jolly Rogers Marina wanting a CP-23

[Craig]

Doubtful if mast rake is your problem. Sounds like you are just overpowered. If you are at hull speed the stern will squat as the boat pushes into its bow wave. Turnbuckles are NOT the same as aircraft trim tabs! Sounds like the boat was showing the normal weather helm as she was being pushed to her limit. At some point the rudder will not be able to hold the boat and she will round up when the rudder stalls. Your boat should(under normal circumstances) be balanced with the mast vertical. Raking the mast aft will shift the center of effort aft increasing weather helm raking forward will decrease it. Really need more info as to point of sail,wind speed, helm position, etc. Tightening the forestay will not "pull up" the stern. Re tension, stays should be taut and the mast should be vertical  fore-aft and port-starboard. It is normal for the lee stay to sag somewhat. In essence the stays should be tight enough to keep the mast from bending excessively but not so tight as to put excessive downward force on it. For most of us it is a trial and error process.

[Banana Cakes]

Hey! Thanks for the help Craig! I have never messed with adjusting the standing rigging.  But the way you described how it should be is currently how I have it, so I feel like I have it in the right tension on all cables.  The point of sail was more on a close haul winds were I would say 15 gusts up to 22, I was following a thunderstorm (I know, stupid but great winds  ) I feel the right answer would have been to reef the main.  Thanks again for clearing up the situation.

"IF you ain't sailing, you're wrong"

[skip1930]

Tuning? Straight up and down as per Rich Hutchins. No rake required. These boats are 'barges' and not racing hulls. Cruisers not racers.
Standing rigging taught but not so tight that it wants to push the mast clean through the bottom of the hull. You get the idea.

The windward side is tight while the lee side is loose, well kind of loose.
Play with the fore and aft rigging till the mast is straight up and down.
Lay in the vee birth and through the forward hatch sight up the mast while tied to the dock and make the mast straight. No bows.
You'll be amazed at how just a few turns on the turn buckle one way or the other can impose a port-starboard bow into the mast's tube either above or below the spreaders.

" Does anybody know the tension setting for the standing rigging? " Means nothing. It's superfluous.
Sailing a CP-23 at 35 degrees over ? ... let out the main sheet. Let her stand up right. She'll sail faster and not flood the scuppers.
Your just about to loose control and round up into the wind. Then you'll stall. And eventually get back to sailing while beating the stiches out of the sail cloth.

skip.

Best sailing is between two storms.

[mattman]

You appeared overpowered which is a different issue than tuning the mast (although a poor tuning job can help overpower you some). A reef would have helped. If you are singlehanded you can tuck a reef in while hove to (you do need to hold your tiller to the lee with a line- I use a sailtie and bungees for a tiller tamer) (also if you heave to on starboard you still have rights over other sailors). In terms of your question on mast tuning, I race a lot of different boats and each one is tuned differently for each race and each expected wind condition, on my cruising boats I do the same thing but hit for middle of the road. This is what I do , others do it differently - your mileage may vary.  If I am using an old set of sails (5-8 years old) I will put a little pre-bend in the mast to help flatten the main, taking some draft out of the sail and de-powering some, a good amount of outhaul will further flatten the main, again reducing power. Finally you can put some vang on to again move the draft forward. The rule of thumb for the vang is top batten parallel with the boom, sheeted with the top tell tale just stalled and lower tells flying. Some others will indicate less vang will de-power the main by letting the top fall off-however I don't find this to be so true-look at the shape of a reefed main-the top does not fall off at all, it is nice and flat. Now to your question of mast tuning...my procedure- put the stick up with loose rigging and lowers backed off quite a bit. Hang a weight from the main halyard to the mast step. Adjust the forestay till you have the mast either with no rake or 1-2% of the mast length which depends on boat design, sail cut, and personal preference in sail trim style. At this point your mast may or may not be centered athwartsship. Run a tape measure up the main halyard and measure from the stern corners, adjusting the uppers until the measurements are the same. You should now be centered- but get off the boat and walk around her and eyeball it-no one said the builder put the fittings on centered or square... Next sight up the mast track (you don't have the boom on right???) making sure there is no bend or drift and verifying a nice straight stick. I now snug the rig the same number of turns (not lowers) to the desired tension, hand tight would be fine you are going to adjust this later anyway. Next decide on the amount of pre-bend and put this in with the lowers-tightening the forward lower will put on more bend. if you want it with no pre-bend just tighten snug like the others and sight up the mast to make sure no bend is being put in. Now go sailing  with a friend in 8-10kts. You are looking for just a skosh of looseness on the lee upper close hauled- not real loose, Skip is right "kind of loose" is what you are looking for, it is kind of a feel- if it feels like too much it probably is. At that time sight up the mast from forward (head at the mast base-face against the mast (see why you brought a friend)? You are looking to see if the masthead is falling off off to leeward, if so head off the wind ease the sheets and take a turn on each upper shroud. head back up wind and look again. After the second look I bet you will be okay. If the headsail looks like it is sagging too much I take up a turn or two on the backstay and you are good to go. You really only have to do this once then mark your turnbuckles for the next time you put up the stick. BTW you can have a perfectly nice sail setting up the rig more casually. I know some folks that never tune a rig having a great time on the water, others would continue to dial in way after I call it "looks good to me!"  Sorry so long but there is a lot to cover..... Happy sailing.

[Banana Cakes]

WOW!! What a answer! I had to read and then re-read the response to fully picture what to do haha! I think I will tinker with it and make sure that she is set appropriately and then mark the settings.  Thanks for the help guys (Skip, Craig, and Matt). The answer was clearly answered.  Sounds like I'm gonna have to practice reefing one manned as well!