Legacy Owners INPUT REQUESTED

[hoosier5]

I am faced with the age old question of putting a long or short shaft engine on the Legacy with standard motor mount.  Delivery will be next month. This boat will be used in the Gulf and adjacent Charlotte Harbor of S.W. Florida so choppy waters are present.  Any thoughts you have concerning the questions below would be highly valued  and thanks in advance for your time.

FOR YOU LONG SHAFT OWNERS:
1.  While underway and the engine tilted full up, does it drag in the water on occasion, all the time, on occasion on a port tack only, does not drag at all?
    Please include your engine brand as the degrees of tilt are different for engine brands.


FOR THE SHORT SHAFT OWNERS:

1.  Does the engine come out of the water and "suck air" when going forward, and if so does it come out while you are at the mast?
2.  Does the engine "suck air" in choppy conditions or a following sea?
3.  Does the engine clear the water under all conditions while in the up position and underway?

FOR THOSE WHO PUT AN ADJUSTABLE MOUNT ON:

1.  What brand and model did you buy that fit?  If so, please include where you purchased or web site.
2.  Did you have to drill holes or fill in existing holes to put it on?

Thanks, Jerry

[Pete H]

Hi Hoosier5,

I have an Evinrude 6HP four stroke long shaft motor mounted on my Legacy. I replaced the standard mount with an adjustable one because with the standard mount the prop dragged in the raised position, in rougher waves the power head was in danger of being swamped and the prop was buried way to deep, (this may not be a problem with a short shaft motor).  On the standard mount the tilt lever was so low as to be nearly impossible for me to reach from the cockpit. The adjustable mount has made significant improvements to all these areas. i.e. I can reach the tilt lever without too much effort, I can partially lower the motor to set the prop depth to suit the sea conditions and when raised and tilted it is well clear of the water even on the port tack.

Mounting it, I used two of the original bolt holes, but as the adjustable mount is a different width I had to drill two new holes (I hope that these are the only holes I ever have to drill in the hull).  I filled the two unused holes by putting the two original bolts, sealed with Sikaflex, back where they came from, that way if I want to go back, or some future owner wants to go back to original the job is simplified.

I bought the bracket in Australia but it had a sticker on it stating that it was made in the USA, I just went down to the shed and had a look but the label is covered by the motor, so cant help with the name. I bought it from Whitworths and their catalogue is on line if you would like a look.

I leave the motor on all the time, don't remove it for trailering, bracket has a motor capacity of 20HP so should be plenty strong.

In summary, I think the Legacy needs an adjustable mounting bracket for the types of waters I sail in, because for open coastal waters which can be unpredictable and cut up rough I felt I needed a fair lump of a motor. I tried using the standard mount and it just didn't do the job satisfactorily.  If your sailing was mainly in sheltered waters and you were using a 2HP short shaft or an electric troller it would probably be fine.

Best Wishes

Pete H

[Mike K]

Hi Jerry,

I have a 2013 Legacy, and after agonizing over the shaft length also, bought a 4HP Tohatsu long shaft (20")with a small internal gas tank and have it on the original fixed motor mount.  I'm glad I went with the longer shaft.  In 2 foot swells or wakes, the prop would almost come out of the water, and I'm sure it would suck a lot of air if it was 5 inches shorter.

With the stainless boom gallows (or whatever it's called), and the lifelines installed, it's very hard to get to the back of the boat and the motor, so I wanted a reverse gear which the Tohatsu has.  But with the stainless steel arch, it makes it very hard to reach the tilt lever that is located low and far away.  So, in the beginning, I had to leave the motor down, and it was a real drag if you know what I mean.  Lots of noise dragging it.

Rather than spending lots more money and cutting holes in a brand new boat for an adjustable motor mount, I spent about $0.50 and bought a 1/4" inch line about 12" long and tied it around the tilt lever in the back, and tied the other end to the front hoop bail of the motor, where the reverse gear is.  Now, I'm able to stand, and lean over the stainless arch (which is great for stability in pitching seas), grab the small line on the front of the engine, and it nicely lifts the tilt lever. I can then easily lift the back of the engine with the other hand until it locks in the UP position.  It works very well.  But yes, you have to turn the engine to one side (about 45 degrees) because it hits the rub rail if you come straight up.

As for how much the motor drags when fully tilted, yes, at times it drags when there are swells on a port tack.   But it's never submerged all the time, and it's not upsetting or too noisy when the very bottom end touches the water.

I hope this helps.  Good luck with the decision!
Mike

[hoosier5]

Thanks Pete, Mike, and others that may respond.  For all that are interested, my research is finding almost all buyers of the Legacy put the long shaft on.

  I have found one owner with a short shaft that did answer the all important question---- his engine DID NOT come out of the water when he went to the bow in calm or slight swell situations.  He sailed in mostly calmer water conditions but  felt that a  following sea or bigger wave action from the stern would bring the engine out of the water. For those wanting to use the short shaft, I found another chat about this issue that included a P165 owner (similar mount to Legacy) who took the plastic plate off the mount, turned it upside down and put it back on.  This placed his short shaft 2 inches closer to the water. I personally  think it shows he was not happy with the short shaft on a standard issue mount.

From yet another very respected source I learned, in his own words " As for dragging the long shaft when it's tilted, that's really more of an annoyance than anything. Compared to the drag of the hull, the extra drag of part of the engine dipping in the water is negligible. I was a bit surprised to see one of the racers in the first Sun Cat Nationals racing with Bimini top up and 8 hp electric start outboard tilted down. He also had two in the cockpit. Alone in my boat with no Bimini and my lighter motor tilted clear, I was really not much faster at all."  During a call to Com-Pac about this issue the long shaft was recommended.  Also, if you look closely at the Sales web page for Legacy  for Punta Gorda Yacht Sales you will see they endorse a long shaft.


All the above information along with your comment, Mike, that the dragging at times does not disturb you, then my own answer begins to form for a long shaft.
Then, Pete, with your information about your success of the adjustable motor mount, the case for a long shaft grows even stronger  as I can go to that if things just do not work out for me using  the standard mount. It appears the answer for me will be a Nissan 5hp long shaft. 

Thanks to all!
Jerry

[skip1930]

Yea, my short shaft 5 hp Mercury on the CP-19 would raise out of the water far enough to pop-pop-pop an exhaust note when I go forward.  She still pumps water though.

What I did this season was to put yet another 2-1/8 inch wood treated block between the engine mounting plate and the motor mount. Years before I had already placed 2 inch rubber blocks in there.

This newest addition now has moved the engine astern far enough to drop the control handle fully down without rubbing on the transom. Additionally when lowered the short shaft engine lays lower in the water and when the motor mount is left lowered, the motor can still be tilted clean out of the water. That's a lot better then dealing with pulling the motor mount up and down as things dictate. I'm very happy with these modifications. Motor exhaust now remains muffled by being under water when going forward.

The motor mount says it's good for 20 hp so I figure cantilevering a 5 hp motor out there 4+ inches is not over stressing the transom or the mount. I'll let you know if anything falls off or cracks.  

skip.

[Pete H]

Skip's reply reminds me of the other reason I changed from the original mount, I couldn't tilt the motor all the way up because it hit the top of the transom. The motor had to be turned all the way to starboard to clear the transom when tilted. I could do this ok before launching standing on the ground behind the boat, but when afloat the tilt lever which is really difficult to reach being low down on the motor was now underneath it because of the motor being turned.  Fitting spacers as Skip recommends (he has photos somewhere on here of his setup) would take care of the problem of the motor fouling the stern.

The stern rail of the Legacy has some advantages as well as a few drawbacks. One of the advantages in my opinion is that if you are going to tow with the motor on the mount, you can simply clip the mainsheet to the motor handle and use that to to support most of the motor's weight on the stern rail, (in another discussion here some were concerned about the effect the weight of the motor might have on the transom). By using the mainsheet to support it that should relieve the transom somewhat. The stern rail should handle the weight easily as it has the mooring cleats on it and they would often be subjected to forces far exceeding the 24 kilograms of the motor

Pete H

[skip1930]

" Skip's reply reminds me of the other reason I changed from the original mount, I couldn't tilt the motor all the way up because it hit the top of the transom. The motor had to be turned all the way to starboard to clear the transom when tilted. I could do this ok before launching standing on the ground behind the boat, but when afloat the tilt lever which is really difficult to reach being low down on the motor was now underneath it because of the motor being turned.  Fitting spacers as Skip recommends (he has photos somewhere on here of his setup) would take care of the problem of the motor fouling the stern. "













See? Easy as pie.
This last wooden shim moved the engine back far enough for the handle to clear the transom, when tilted, clears the water with full tilt.
And when motoring, the engine squats deeper into the water.
And still the motor mount CAN be moved up or down, but where it is now is fine.
Make a 4-1/8 inch thick treated wood block. Drill some holes in the new block, and find some longer bolts.
So the whole assembly has moved the engine 4-1/8" + 1/4" + 2" ... not too far back considering all the problems this solves.

skip.

[BruceW]

I just wanted to say thanks for publishing the pictures of the extensions you have made to the motor mount.

I'm about to put a 6 hp tohatsu on my CP 23, and may have some issues with clearance. I'll see how I might make similar changes to yours, potentially.

I'll probably figure it out when I am at the boat (2 hours away from my home), but what was the reason for the additional aluminum plate? And where did you get the rubber spacers? I may just go for the block of wood first, in case that's enough and easier for me to make.

Bruce

[hoosier5]

A FOLLOW UP AND REVIEW OF THE DECISIONS MADE AFTER ALL THE SUPER INPUT, Jan 14, 2014.   THE MOTOR MOUNT AND ENGINE WERE SELECTED.       Thanks guys for all the input. My decision was to get an adjustable motor mount and a LS Nissan 5 hp.  Let me explain more, backed up with pictures below.  At 74 yrs old, I wanted "simple" and no extra tugging.  Gerry at the factory and my dealer,  Paul at Masthead Inc. of ST Petersburg, FL,  felt I would be fine with the standard mount, but the videos on the web of the engine dragging ever so slightly in the water was not to my taste.  The end result is they humored me and put a standard Com-Pac Sun Cat adjustable mount on.  After three months of sailing Molly B (delivery Nov 3, 2013), I can say I am REALLY HAPPY with the setup.  I found that I can leave the mount in the highest position at all times and never have to move the engine up or down. This includes me going forward (195lbs) with engine prop still  remaining in the water. If needed I have two more slots on the mount to lower the engine.  Therefore, the only engine movement is when I tilt it up to sail.  While sailing, the engine prop is about one foot out of the water under most conditions and with winds in the 15-16 knot range with full sails up about 6 inches above the water.  This is on a port tack or the worst conditions to drag a motor. All this happiness was done for about $275 installed at the factory.  From the pictures note that the engine sits up high, allowing an almost straight pull  of the starter rope and handle.  So far I am much happier with the front mount gear lever than the side.  This again allows easier access and less leaning to operate. My engine choice is based on my personal experience of having a previous Nissan that worked flawless, especially low idle. This one seems to be doing the same (fingers crossed). The Nissan tilt angle is also a few degrees higher than Yamaha and others. One last thought on the engine-- when looking at the picture the top flange of the engine is just out of the water and really does not look deep enough into the water.  However, when I put my 195 lbs in the cockpit it lowers it enough to work under all conditions.

My dealer was most helpful in fitting out the original jib for the roller furling system.  With him also being a sail maker, extra important touches like the UV on the edges of the sail and positioning the fair leads on the boat were done and his placement is working just fine.  With that addition absolutely all control can be done while in the cockpit.
I have just finished putting in a depth finder located on the center support pole in the cabin and a Ram swing arm (6 inch arm only is needed) that will hold a compass, GPS, and small clock. I chose to put the Depth finder on the center support pole as I found I can read it from anywhere in the cockpit and it is a whole lot easier running the wiring with it there. I can, while in the cockpit, lean in and reach the on/off button on the depth finder. The transducer I placed at the bottom of the center support pole and a little to the left so as to have only the hull to shoot thru.  On center line there are several extra layers of glass fabric and the accuracy is affected.  With the Depth finder (Hummingbird) on the center pole I found there is just enough room to be comfortable sitting with your back to the pole or as some might be wondering, enough room to put the porta potti. I elected no porta potti  as the last 4 boats I have owned, it was never used.  That is because I live on the water and come home every night, rarely camping out.

AND FOR THOSE THINKING OF A LEGACY HERE ARE MY ONE LINERS OF WHAT MY CONCERNS WERE  BEFORE BUYING AND THE OUTCOME.  

* Will water come in the aft cockpit drains?  I have not found any water  under all conditions.

* If the main sail hangs up coming down can I step into the cabin and reach the mast to pull it down?   Yes, one step into the cabin puts you within easy range to handle anything at the base of the mast and boom.  In addition, I have found that since the main sail foot is not in a slot in the boom, the opening between the mainsail and the boom makes a perfect grab handle going anywhere on the boat.

* At 74 yrs old can I put the mast, mainsail, AND roller furling up by myself.  Yes I can.  By standing on the cabin roof I found it to be easier than I thought.  I can remember after standing it up saying to myself---   "That really is not a problem".   Living on the water, I only put the mast up/down about once every 6 months so really no problem. I did tie the end of the roller furling to the anchor roller while putting the rig up just to keep it out of the way.  I recently noticed the original jib halyard roller was left  at the mast top.   I can see where using that and the roller for the anchor one could very easily work out a system to pull the entire rig up.

* Will the boat be too tender compared to the Sun Cat I am coming off?  Yes and No.  Yes, as you have read from others the initial "giving" of the boat is a great deal compared to the Sun Cat.  It is just the nature of the design, however, once that initial give has taken place it stiffens up.  To keep Molly B happy  I step to the center as much as possible when going on board and grab the mast or boom.

*  Will I be happy with the sailing difference of sloop versus the flat sailing of the Sun Cat?  We would each have a different answer here but my personal experience LED ME AWAY from a SunCat because the extra effort putting the main sail up and down with the gaff boom.  For me it was a beautiful rig to look at but  a pain to get the sail up without hanging that last few feet and especially hard to lower as the mainsail would hang up about 60% of the time coming down. This hanging up while lowering has had many owners putting a down haul -- yes, downhaul on a small rig.   Lazy jacks helped on the Sun Cat and is an item I will not be putting on the Legacy as there is just no need for it.  Zero problems putting the sail up or down on the Legacy. The halyard layout is supreme on the Legacy.  Sailing the Legacy I find to be a pleasure with full control of the sails with the roller furling and allowing less of a sail to contain when bringing the main sail down.  As I single hand about 90%  of the time the "panic time" to lower  the sail and tuck it away is limited, especially on "testy" days --- a time that I really dreaded with the Sun Cat, but find it is NOT A PROBLEM with the Legacy.

* Will the Legacy really fit into my garage.   YES, yes, and yes even with the engine on it.

* Can I get away from the awful window leaks the Sun Cats have?  YES, yes, and yes.   The Legacy, as you know does not have ports that open.  As such they are bullet proof (well almost) from having leaks.  That is such a joy after spending countless hours trying to cure leaks on the Sun Cat.  I have owned two Sun Cats and both had the same window leaking problem.  The happy Sun Cat guys are those that lucked out and got a boat with no leaks(rare) or are very good at tearing windows out and replacing them. Taking note on the Trailer Sailor of others with the same problem verifies the leaks.

 











Thanks, again, from Jerry and Molly B

[kahpho]

Some good information in there. Thanks Jerry. They are pretty nice boats, aren't they?

mel 

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

[Mike K]

Jerry,

Thanks for the fabulous update on not only your engine choice, but your motor mounts, and all the other things you did with your Legacy to make it "your own".  Wonderful tips, and with the pictures, now I've got some good pointers for possible future projects for my Legacy.  A furling jib is an interesting concept for single-handing on this small boat.  And good luck with the Nissan (Tohatsu), I think you'll like it. 

I also appreciate your input on the Legacy versus the SunCat boats, as I don't know anyone with a catboat to talk to for impressions.  If you have time, can you give some impression on how the Legacy sloop actually sails versus a catboat?  I really don't know much about catboats, and don't know their pluses and minuses compared to little sloops on the water.  Compac seems to sell a lot of them, and I wonder why.   Since you've owned both, I would appreciate your real knowledge rather than someones impressions from reading spec sheets, etc.

Mike
'13 Legacy

[hoosier5]

Hi Mike:

To answer your question about my comparison of the Legacy and the Sun Cat, I have to clarify that it is my personal opinion and factors might be different for others.  By factors I mean age, where you plan to keep the boat, etc.  So, with that in mind I shall tell of my experience of ownership of both.  For trailering either one of them there is no difference with maybe only 500 lbs more for the Sun Cat. Both boats launched well on a low tide with no trouble.  Mast up and down routine:  The Sun Cat is much easier, period, but at my old age I can still handle the Legacy with no problem. It just takes a little longer.

  Here is one of those factors coming into play-- where will you keep it?  For me I kept both boats on a lift out back so putting a mast up and down only took place maybe every 6 months. For someone trailering all the time to sail the SunCat would probably be easier for them. What was important to me and one of the big reasons I went for the Legacy was I wanted the boat to fit into my garage when we are gone for a few months each summer.  The Legacy fits fine.  The Sun Cat is a struggle with modifications that must be done with what is called a "garage kit". This modification can be done at home with parts from the factory. Even then it is iffy.

SunCat VS Legacy on the water:  The Sun Cat feels like a much, much bigger boat.  You first notice this when you step on board.  It does not give.  Since you also own a Legacy you know how we must watch that first step when boarding as the boat gives a bunch. Since I single hand most of the time the much smaller cockpit of the Legacy does not bother me, but might others. The big difference in the cockpit is that the depth of the SunCat is much more comfortable on the legs and feet. I find myself in the Legacy cockpit at times with what feels like my legs doubled up under me with such a shallow depth.  I do love the boom gallows on both boats and they serve the purpose fine. If you plan on staying out over night the SunCat does have an ample cabin, much larger than the Legacy.

  It is true, the SunCat sails much flatter on all points of sail and is a delight being able to set the sail to sail in almost any direction without having to worry about a jib flapping.  But you see, worrying with a jib was one of the reasons I went to the Legacy.  I love messing with the jib AND would not have one unless it was roller furled.  That is another one of those 'factors' (age) as I in no way want to go up front with tossing seas to handle a jib. The Legacy does sail at a greater angle just as a sloop should and a trait I like and prefer.  Both boats handle winds in the 15knot range well and any higher winds I head in-- just too much work.  I will state in strong terms (my opinion again) that for me the sail handling is much easier on the Legacy. By roller furling the jib I am left with just the main that works to perfection going up and coming down-- all from the cockpit.  With the Sun Cat great care must be taken to keep the gaff boom level while putting up the sail and taking it down. That takes time to master and even then the gaff boom gets hung up a lot on the way down such that I found myself pulling on the mainsail to get the gaff boom to come on down. I never did like using two halyards ( main and gaff) to control the one sail. Lazy jacks on the Sun Cat are a must whereas the Legacy is so simple I would never put them on.  In short, for me, I would prefer the Legacy sail set up every time over the Sun Cat.  I find both boats will go into every shallow gunk hole I want to stick it into.  The centerboard on both work the same.  The only difference there is the SunCat has water coming up thru the centerboard pendant hole all the time whereas the Legacy has very little to none. That is why you see the fancy wood grates as an option for the SunCat cockpit. Overall, I feel just as safe( and safer with the sail handling set up) on the Legacy under all sea conditions as I did with the Sun Cat. My sailing area is mostly coastal in the Gulf and Charlotte Harbor on the SW Florida coast.
Construction of both boats:   There is only one glaring problem and it is the opening ports on the Sun Cat.  You will have leaks and it takes a lot of patience and know how to find and solve the problem.  If you are a Sun Cat owner there is a super good chance your port or ports leak.  I had two Sun Cats and they both had problems. To read more on the Sun Cat most of the Sun Cat guys around Charlotte Harbor hang out on trailer sailor web site: http://forum.trailersailor.com/forum.php?id=4

So, for me the move to the Legacy has been good and I do not regret going smaller,  in fact I am loving it. 

Jerry and Molly B

[Mike K]

Jerry,

Thanks so much for the excellent info and opinions about the suncat versus Legacy. You answered that burning, nagging question in my mind since buying the Legacy - "Did I buy the right boat?"  I feel much better about buying the sloop now.

It's interesting that you sail Charlotte Harbor.  I'm from Delaware, but on March 8-12 I will be sailing on Charlotte Harbor from Burnt Store Marina on a catamaran trying to earn my ASA 103,104 and 114 certification.  I will be thinking if you sailing your Legacy on those waters as we are out learning the big boat.  I only want the certification to charter periodically on vacation.  I love my shoal draft Legacy too much as a trailer sailor to give it up for the monster boats with their monster boat payments and maintenance.

I'm also going to drive down beforehand and check out the future trailer sailing possibilities on the panhandle up by Panama City and St. Joe and St. George.  Who knows, someday I may retire down there  or around Charlotte Harbor, and good sailing grounds for my Legacy are high in the priority list!

Thanks again for all your thoughts.

Mike
2013 Legacy "Santosha"

[john day]

Hj Jerry,

I own a legacy'07 with the standard mount  # I like the simplicity and strength  #2 the Merc 3.5 is a great fit, and has neutral and forward shifts.  #3 excellent power to weight ratio #4 keeps weight at  minimum for overall boat balance #5 the engine is light and easy to manage[ it is a four stroke]1 more hp adds 20 lbs  #6 with the engine raised it does touch the water at times, nothing significant[ 15''shaft]

Observations : I own a Honda 2hp, the merc3.5 has more thrust, therefore the extra weight is a acceptable, the power is a good for coastal NC   
  I have tested a 5hp and adjustable mount on a montgomery 15  the owner and I agree- too much weight too many levers, too many steps and complications for a micro-cruiser-the owner opted for a fixed mount and much lighter motor

John
SV iota

[Unclemike]

John,
Thanks for your info. Is your Merc a long or short shaft and does it have a reverse?
Thanks a heap,
Uncle Mike