Advice Requested: Looking at a CP-23 1981

[neosoul]

Hello,
I am a newbie looking to purchase a CP-23. I sold our 83 O'DaySailer that we've had for over 20 years (before I was married). Now I have three kids and I want to move us to a CP-23. I've done my research sailed a newer model (92') on the LI Sound and I feel this is a perfect boat for the family. Tomorrow I will be looking at a 1981 CP-23 with trailer no motor $2,500. The boat will be moored and put on the trailer in the winter.

Going from the O'Day to the CP-23 is a bit daunting. I knew EVERY part of my old boat, and the CP-23 is a lot of boat. What advice would you give me when looking at this boat. Is there anything in particular I need to "look-out" for?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

[crazycarl]

at $2500 i would be looking at everything.

that price is way too low for a compac 23 in sailable condition.

sometimes what looks like a bargain could be a money pit.


carl

[MacGyver]

You definitely need to look it all over. At that price (cheaper than a 19........ and most 16s for that matter) with a trailer that is cheap.
Maybe you are getting a gem, but doubtful.

If anything, take many pictures, and email them to people who would know what to look for (I would be glad to look them over for you, could send in email.)

A trained eye can see what others wouldnt. also, the prospect of a new boat will cause some to overlook by mistake things that would send a red flag to those who have no vested interest.

Mac

[neosoul]

MacGyver,
That's mighty nice of you!
Is there anything in particular I should photograph or that you want to see?

I've been told this boat has been on the hard for three years. I will assume it will need some items updated. My concern is the extent of "updates" needed - whether or not this a good deal or will it be a "money pit".

Again thanks a bunch!!

[MacGyver]

Interior, exterior, etc.
Any cracks, and notate their locations, etc.

The process might require some phone time, but we can work that out. I am a fiberglass technician by trade, so with your help I can visualize where things are and what stresses may have caused them.

What you might do, is take a lot of pictures, and might end up sending me only a few, then if I need more detail, send me others that would aid me.

If it has been on the hard for 3 years, look for issues on the bottom, like chipped paint in a circular manner. that is typically indicative of blisters, and those are probably not a bad thing, but could be, I can help you differentiate that.

Was the boat salt water or fresh water?

Mac

[Salty19]

There's a good buyers guide on sail net here:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/48177-boat-inspection-trip-tips.html

Of course many of the systems in the article won't apply, but overall worth reading.

There are a few trouble spots when they get that old..deck to hull joint, mast step, leaks, worn out blocks/tracks/engine mount. Leaking bow eye,water intrusion under stanchions and bow/stern pulpits and possible wood damage under these hard points. And of course if the sails and running rigging are original, they are probably shot. From there, damage from grounding seems common.

I wouldn't worry about the outboard not starting. Probably an easy carb rebuild or spark plug change.

Good luck, and welcome to the forum.

If you state where you are there might be a fellow Compa-a-naut that can help you look at it and give some advise.

[jgsharpe]

My '81 with a marginal trailer cost $6500 in 2009 and I thought I got a pretty fair deal, so I agree with the others that $2500 may be underpriced for a reason.  In addition to the good ideas others have offered, definitely check the rust on the trailer and make sure it's roadworthy, play in the rudder gudgeon is a common problem and repairable, look inside for evidence of leaks from the deck-mounted hardware and brightwork.  Might seem like overkill, but do confirm that all the rigging is complete and correct for that boat, including the sails.  Over the years people do the craziest things and getting it right can be expensive.

[NateD]

Some of this depends on what you're going to do with the boat and what you expect from it. A few years ago I looked at an early 80s CP23 locally that was listed for $3,500. It was structurally sound, but water had gotten inside so there were no cushions and all the interior trim had been removed. It was on a trailer, but it was home built with a single mobile home axle (which I don't think is technically legal in MN anymore, in any case it didn't have brakes). The sails were original to the boat, no roller furling. No bimini, no autopilot, older pull start 2-stroke motor, no sink/water tank, no head, no stove. I think the navigation lights might have worked, but it didn't have much for an electrical system. Exterior brightwork needed refinishing, gel coat was oxidized, and the running rigging looked pretty old. The previous owner kept it on a mooring at his cabin, day sailed it, and the kids sometimes spent the night on it with camp mattresses and sleeping bags. IF that is all you want to do with it, then you can focus on structural issues, check for soft spots around the mast step, check the mast and standing rigging for damage, and make sure the trailer isn't about to turn into a pile of rust. A boat like that will get you on the water cheap for some fun with the family.

Personally, I passed on the boat. Taking a boat from that kind of condition to "average" condition costs much more than just buying a boat in average condition. New cushions are $1,000-$3,000 depending on how handy you are. A new set of sails, $2,200. Add roller furling for the jib, about $1,000. A decent used tandem axle boat trailer with surge brakes $1,000-$2,000. Bimini $500-$800, autopilot $500-$700, used 4 stroke motor with electric start so my wife can start it $1,000-$1,500. So if you take that $2,500 boat that might be structurally sound and start adding in repairs and upgrades, you quickly hit $10,000. However, if you just want to get on the water for cheap, the $2,500 boat might be a a good deal, it just depends on what your plans are for using the boat. Since you've been on a 1992, you know what they can look like in presumably good condition. Right now a 1992 in average condition would probably cost $7,000-$10,000, so compare what you're getting for $2,500 compared to what you could get for 7-10k.

[neosoul]

I didn't even get a chance to look at the boat.
Here's the update:
When I called this morning to get directions to look at the boat I asked some general questions - his experience sailing it, how does she handle in the chop, what kind of motor he used etc. His answers led me to believe that this guy was flat out lying about being a sailor and even worse, I felt he never sailed this boat. He was getting a little annoyed with my questions and said to me, "Do you want to see the F---'in boat or talk on the phone all day?" But I asked one more question anyway and his answer made me decide to look elsewhere for my next boat. I asked him if he had the papers so I could register the boat and trailer. He told me I didn't need them and that he would give me a bill of sale and that's all I would need. (Not true in NY - You can get a 90 day temporary Registration pending a DMV check.)

So I went with my instincts and decided to pass on the boat. I didn't like his rude manner, that fact I felt he was lying on a few different levels and the questionable ownership of the boat. I learned if you can't trust someone with little things how can you possibly trust them with larger things. To me buying a boat is a BIG thing. I also did not feel comfortable bringing my kids to see this boat due to this man's behavior on the phone. (Heck, I feel I made a lifetime friend with the person I sold my previous boat - it's been a few weeks since the sale, but he's still calling and emailing me all the time and I don't mind it at all.)

To say I am a bit disappointed is an understatement. I got really excited about this boat, but I think I made the right decision. I've heard it on this forum and my grandfather used to say it all the time "if it's too good to be true, it usually is". In any event thanks so much for the feedback and the sound advice. It's good to know you're there to help us newbies.

I am super frustrated not being on the water at this time of year. I am now considering a CP-23 in an other state asking $4,500 or a CP-16. Not having sailed a CP-16 I am worried about how crammed I'll be with my three kids.

Again many thanks!!!

[Salty19]

#1 rule of buying a boat...do not get excited until you look at it thoroughly! It's tough to emotionally opt out,
But that was the right thing to do.

With three kids, you'll have little time to fix up an old beater. Look for one that has been well
Cared for.  If day sailing, the 16 has plenty of room in the cockpit for you and three kids.
Maybe not if you add another adult...

I'm thinking don't let the impatience of summer make you buy something you'll regret.
The short term gain will be spoiled with long term hassle.

[kickingbug1]

    maybe like me a divorce is in the future.

[neosoul]

Very wise words Salty19! I'll do my best to heed them, but I keep being pulled into CraigsList and I get lost (I found a CP-19 on CL - http://watertown.craigslist.org/boa/3804237419.html).

 

[MacGyver]

That looks more like a honest deal.

Id have to see more of it. 19s are a stable boat, and we have had 5 people in our cockpit. my wife ended up going forward as it was crowded. all adults.
Sails flatter than other boats. Will sleep 4. And with the complete renovation of mine, I can honestly say that I was surprised how nicely built they are (versus all the other boats I have worked on over my 16 year career.) All hardware was able to be gotten too.

Not a 23, but the boat does fit in a garage door opening of slightly less than 8 foot. (8 foot door is actually less than 8 foot) and with the tongue removed, it will fit in as long as you have about 22 feet to keep her in.

setup time for the mast for me on the 19 is about 15 minutes max. leaving the backstay and 2 lowers connected.

I honestly love the 19. otherwise I wouldnt have done all the work to ours.
Here is the link to the post I am running about the work......
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6212.0

The more boats you look over, the more experience you will have when finding the right one.

Mac

[Bob23]

Hi Neo:
   I would have done the same. I take no pleasure in fools and a lying fool is even worse. A rude, lying fool well- the deal couldv'e been great but he'd get not a dime from me.
  Best to you in your searching...you'll find a lot of help here as well as many opinions and a healthy dose of shananigans.
Bob23

[neosoul]

Bob23 & Mac,
I appreciate the feedback, it's helping me calm down a bit.
Raising kids make me super conscious of the fact that I have to "walk the walk" and set an example of what is right. I do not want my children seeing their Pop getting involved in shady deals with unsavory people. My kids need to know that the world is full of all kinds of folk and they must be prepared to handle these types of issues. I also want to do what's right ethically because it's just bad karma otherwise (If I had bought this boat, I am sure I'd be questioning the deal big time when I get caught in a bad squall.)

As far as the CP-19 I found on CraigsList is concerned, it's doubtful I'll get to see it. It's an 8 1/2 hour trip one-way from where I am and that's a bit much to go check it out only to discover it's a dog. I did find out, however, that CP-19s are darn hard to find, not just in my area, but around the country.  This leads me to believe that a mid to late 80s CP-16 is probably the best boat for us now. It fits our Budget PERFECTLY and although we may not be able to fit all three kids and the wife in the cockpit at the same time, I think we can make do.

My main concern now is, if I do purchase a CP-16, can I still be friends with you guys with the big boats on the forum?

Neo