16 angle of heel

[Craig]

I was sailing my 16 last month in a stiff breeze.  Rather than spill the main I let the boat heel more than usual.  At about 30 degrees the fierce weather helm began to lessen and the rudder seemed to lose some of it's "bite."  I never got the rail under nor did I ever feel like I was in danger of losing control.  

Anyone else experience anything like this when heeled that far in their 16?  What angle of heel do you all feel comfortable with and when do you spill your main?

Craig

[Gil Weiss]

Hi Craig,

I find two issues affect my heel angle. Crew comfort and my paranoia about overstressing the rigging. With the great force required on the tiller using the original flat plate rudder I would get to thinking too much about the rigging. Realistically, I feel that 30 degrees is about max on both counts- comfort and boat stress. A few times I have let the wind force me over to almost get the rail in the water but the boat gets so stiff and fights back that the rail stops short of getting wet. It seems a LOT of wind would be required to put the rail in. THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. I also think at a large rate of heel the sails spill on their own.

I never noticed the "rudder bite" issue and I always felt in control.

There was a time where sailing with the rail in the water was a neat thing, but now days I prefer comfort and relaxation. I think the fact that the CP16 has something like 42 percent of its weight in the keel and small sail area keeps it stable and stiff.

[David Olson]

I think at that point you will find that you are spilling air off the top of the sail.  In effect, it makes the boat feel like you have eased the main.  I believe this was the intent based on the somewhat undersized sail plan for the 16.  Also, at that point the keel has greatly reduced ability to prevent slipping.

Still....grat fun!

David

[multimedia_smith]

We went out today in Lake Ponchartrain.. winds 20 - 25 w/ some stronger puffs.  GREAT FUN!  
Later in the afternoon... I let my neighbor skipper.  He is an experienced sailor on larger boats.  At one point he had the main pinched kinda tight and we were hit with a puff.  Before the boat headed up and righted... we put the rail in the water and shipped a couple of gallons into the cockpit.  It ran into the well from the leward seat as we righted and I took my scupper plugs out to drain her which went fairly quickly.  
He apologized and I really didn't mind as it was interesting to me to see what the boat would do when I didn't have my wife and daughter aboard... nice to know that there is no "foolproof self righting auto pilot".  The boat does recover quickly... but.... :!:

[Craig]

Your experience has sunk one Com-Pac urban myth - that the 16's keel will lose its lift and the boat will round up before dunking the rail.  Says 2 things: 1) The keel on the 16 is more efficient than it gets credit for. 2) It is possible to get knocked down in extreme conditions.  The other lesson learned is that everything happens fast on a 16.  I've sailed a Com-Pac 23 and it sails just like my 16, only everything happens in slow motion.  For a bigger boat skipper everything happens on a 16 lightening fast.  A good reason to not cleat off the main on a blustery day!

Craig

[mhrivnak]

Interestingly, I had a similar experience this weekend on Kerr Lake, which straddles the NC/VA border.  My CP19 was beating to weather great with the genoa until the wind kicked up to 20+, which put the rail in the water and resulted in some water flowing over into the cockpit.

After switching to the jib, the wind kept cranking above 25, and we again put the rail in the water and got some in the cockpit.

To the boat's credit, it rounded up quickly and put quite a lot of force on the rudder.  I don't think it would have happened with the jib had we not been intentionally facilitating it.

It was interesting to see how the boat handled in these very strong winds.  I also noticed that with only the main up, pointing performance was particularly bad.  I can imagien though that on a larger body of water with larger waves (never topped about 2 feet on the lake that day), the situation would have been less manageable.

[David Olson]

Rail in the water?  Fill the cockpit?

No question it can be done  :oops:  :roll:  :wink: .

Or I could also say  :shock: .

Thats why I leave my scuppers unplugged...  (oh let's not start that one again....)

David

[Gil Weiss]

Besides leaving the scuppers open, don't forget to close the hatch! I have a two piece cabin "door" made from white HDPE. When it is gusty, I put in the bottom section at a minimum. In case you take water into the cockpit you need to be prepared. In gusty conditions I also make everyone where PFD's, not so much because we may turn over, but because one can go overboard.

[PaulE]

My experience on this.

I was out sailing on the lake with 150 Genoa and full main in conditions where most people would be putting in a reef. I was healed over till the rub rail was just inches from the water. It took all my strengh to hold the tiller.
A big puff came, and the keel skipped and the boat rounded right up into the wind.
My boat was completely empty so, I'm thinking that with reduced weight and only one person that when the puff caused it to heal over more, the keel just rotated out of the water.

All my rigging is stock. I think that if I'd had a centerboard I may have gone swimming. The handheld GPS said I was doing 7.5 knots at the time.

[Craig]

Paul,

I assume this was in a 16?  Do you have a 16/1 or 16/2-3? The sailplan is different. The 16/1 has a larger main and smaller jib than the later versions, and no bowsprit.  My guess is the 16/1 would be more likely to round up than the later versions because there is greater weather helm.

Craig

[PaulE]

You guessed it. Its a 16/1, hull #315.

I bet that if I had a centerboard, I'd probably have rolled the boat.

This isn't my normal behavior but, since I was in the lake off my back yard, if anything bad happend, I could easily swim to shore. Its nice to know where the limitations are.

I was (I believe) using the original sails, the hull number is on the main, and they have the little red arrows on them.

[Craig]

Yep, those little red arrows are the give away that those are the orignal Johnson sails. I still use them on my 1980. With my first entering college next fall, and a younger one two years later I hope the old seams hold together for a few more years. I hope I can then splurge and upgrade the standing rigging to a 16/2 and get a bigger headsail.  I think i'll keep the same size main.

Craig