Eclipse #17

[beradthefish]

Apparently the Eclipse I'll be looking at soon in Orlando is #17. Due to a series of events, the boat was only test sailed once and has never been owned. If all looks well, I'll be picking up the boat next week or weekend then transporting it to Hutchins to correct a 'minor mast hinge pin issue'. it is being advertised as 'new', seller claims inside and out.

Anyone know of any significant differences between the latest boats produced and this early hull #?  Any concerns?

Also- It's sitting on a performance trailer, I know they're out of business now. Anything I should be looking at specifically? I think I read something about D vs E rated tires.

Thanks.

[beradthefish]

And as luck would have it, the original Eclipse in FL became available again at almost exactly the same price, only it includes an 8 HP Tohatsu and an ST 2000 autopilot. Decisions decisions. I'm almost more comfortable with the fact that this one HASN'T sat for 7 years!

[Salty19]

That is a hard decision, but the new one is probably in better shape.  Sure you might have to nuke the interior with mildew remover, and polish out things but at least it hasn't had it's share of use, and possibly abuse. The trailer tires if original should be changed immediately, IMO. And I bet the trailer bearings on the new boat are in need of replacement sitting there in the same spot.  You wouldn't really know which is a better deal until you finely inspected both boats.  Also 7 years of use would mean the sails are on their decline-that's probably near $1000 from an inexpensive but good loft, like National Sails.  They don't last forever.  Not to mention line, block wear, rigging, etc.

A little advice on the outboard. Scout out craigslist pages within a few hours for a 4-6hp two stroke long shaft. Or an 8hp..many of these are the same exact models/weight as the 6hp versions, just tuned differently in the carb/reeds, etc. Much cheaper, lighter, quieter and better performing IMO.

Considering you don't see Eclipses too often for sale, regardless of which way you go, don't wait too long to decide or they may be gone.

[carry-on]

Is the "original" the unit in Punta Gorda? That is a good looking boat based on the three pictures. The owner/dealer could send more pictures with some details in areas like the ports,bow sprit, chain plates, rub rail etc.
The boat has been on the market at least since April. Could be the economy or ??
Look for hull damage. I've used boatfax a few times but never confident that hull repairs were not accomplished at home or never reported. I don't know any substitute for crawling around on the boat, checking the spars, rigging, rudder, center boardetc.
The OB needs a good look at the fuel system and carburetor since the unit may have been idle for months.
Trailer needs a good eyeball and check of bearings and tires. "E" load rating is preferred.
If the boat is a 2005, the book average retail is $13,500. Most sellers feel there rig is above average to exceptional.
Just like all our children.
If you go to Orlando, it is only about two hours to Punta Gorda. Then you can make a valid comparison.

[beradthefish]

So the reason for the seven year sit:

"As for why we still have a new boat:  our dealership was in SC on Lk. Marion and when Santee Cooper Power Co. repaired the dam and replaced the lock doors at Monk's Corner (75' drop)  the water was completely drained from our lake, not once but twice over the past 7 years.  Many businesses suffered from this happening.  Also, the fact of my eyesight going bad has forced us to give up the boat business and return to FL."

Thanks to whoever sent the checklist! Edit: thanks Carry On.

Edit: Also, having lunch with the dealer/owner of the "new" Eclipse Tuesday, he's passing through. His old dealer is boutv1/2 hour from me.

[Vectordirector]

Didn't know if I should comment here on on the other message, so I'll do it here to keep it topical.  If I understand the previous posts, both these boats are 2005 models.  The one I have a deal pending is also a 2005 but i don't know what hull number it is.  It hasn't been sailed much, I can tell you that.  It is loaded with equipment:  bimini, autopilot, dodger, 6 horse suzuki, spinnaker,2 spare tires, upgraded trailer springs, life jackets, tool box, 2 anchors and rode, full cover, more I'm sure, I didn't take a full inventory. basically water ready.  Just needs a buff and polish and teak redone.  I won't say what the agreed upon price is, other than it is significantly less than either of the ones you are looking at.   The NADA number for my zipcode including trailer and motor is about right, I think.  I'm close to that number.  The shorter season up north probably takes into account the higher prices you are seeing. 
Every used boat has a different story. A 7 year sit I would consider very strange, but I guess anything is possible.  I didn't get a survey because my gut feeling is I can trust the present owner, you may want to consider one @ $20k.  Trust your gut and how much risk you are willing to take. 
You may already know this but I'll throw it out there anyway.  Dealer prices always seem high to me.  I think they do this on purpose as they know they will have to "deal".  Just like cars.  Asking prices mean little to them.  It also seems to matter if the boat is a brokerage deal or if the dealer actually took the boat in trade and actually owns it.  They know what they have in it and what their bottom line price is.  Brokerage is totally different as you are still dealing with the owner and what they are willing to take for the boat, and if they need to sell or are just "testing the waters".  I don't know what the market is like in Florida, but it is still pretty soft up here in Illinois.  I think I'm getting a pretty good deal on my Eclipse.  After quite a bit of research, my conclusion is that it comes down more to condition rather than age.  A well maintained 30 year old boat is a better buy than a neglected 5 year old boat.  I originally had my eye on a 1983 Compac 19, well maintained, and almost bought it until I found the Eclipse.  I decided that the improvements made in the Eclipse made the higher investment worth it, to me.   The other bit of information I have gleaned during my research and previous boat ownership:  Don't be surprised if you have to spend another 5-10% or so of the purchase price to get the boat how you want it.  Whether it is a new sail, motor, GPS, radio, bottom paint, coast guard stuff, general maintenance neglected by the previous owner, or all of the above, there is always something you "just can't live without".  If you have owned a boat before you are well aware of this, but I thought I should bring it up anyway.   

The decision is difficult between the two you are looking at.  I couldn't make a decision if I had to go by looking at the pics on the other thread, you will have to see them both in person, I think.   I looked at a lot of boats and this one is the one.  You can feel it when you have the right one, there becomes no doubt in your mind.   I can't offer any additional information as far as improvements made over the different hull numbers, I would think all 2005 boats are basically the same.  Perhaps a call to Hutchins might answer that question.  This forum is the best source of information on the trailers.  My research indicates you definetely want load range "E" tires on the Eclipse trailer, and they are hard to find in the 10" tires that are on the stock wheels.

Good luck, keep us informed, and I'll do the same. 

Vectordirector

[beradthefish]

I'm somewhat new at this, but have noticed that prices are inflated by both brokers and dealers. When I was looking at Horizons, I noticed that many were selling for around $27k with the diesel. Then I found one for $34k. Nothing special about it. I sent the broker a note asking why they were asking so much- they replied that I should then make an offer more representative of what they're going for on the market.

I also perceive that prices and offers are not often discussed. A couple weeks ago, the dealer in PG said I should make an offer on the Eclipse because there's another offer on the table. I asked him what the offer was, he said 'obviously I can't discuss that' or words to that effect. No, not obvious to me. I don't get it. I'm accustomed to a lot more transparency!

It also would seem that NADA is a very loose guideline.

I talked the Orlando boat down a little over $1k, but that's his bottom line. I don't have enough of a sample to compare if I'm getting a terrible deal.  Reading your post makes me feel that I might be!

As for hull #s, they're only two apart, the other one is #19. When I asked Hutchins about the differences between 2005 and now, he responded 'We probably do something different today but I can tell you that there is nothing significant enough for me to remember.'.  

The broker for #19 says, "I didn't write the add, but I'd give the boat a 7 on my 1-10 scale.
Has a slight dent in the rubrail, starboard forward (about 2 inches).
Shroud tee on port side as having trouble staying in during mast raising (I have a better than the factory fix for that) they all do it.

Sails look great, varnish is fresh, bottom paint is good, eveything (lights, auto pilot, etc.) works, motor runs great (smallest electric start engine available)

Trailer shows good, almost no rust (probably due for new carpet on bunks) tires are good, little weather cracking, good tread."

Since I'm a bit wary, I'll throw out there that a vast majority of the used Eclipses are 2005s from my observation. Coincidence? I hope not!

Edit: I'll add that G. Hutchins says of the 8 HP motor #19 comes with, 'that is more weight than I would want on the back of the boat.  Also, it just doesn't need 8 hp.'. I looked up the spec, it's about 80 lbs.

[Vectordirector]

Don't know if you have seen these but  sailingtexas.com has a kind of history of Eclipses that were posted for sale on that site.  Go to the photo section and it will show all the boats of any model that were for sale at one time or another posted there.  Sailboatlistings.com also has some older posts and couple of recent sales on there as well.   Neither has actual sales prices but they are interesting nevertheless.  I don't think it is a coincedence that there are a lot of 2005 boats.  My guess is with the boat being introduced in 2004 and after the sterling reviews that 2005 was probably the year that they produced the most Eclipses.  Then the economy tanked and sales tapered off. 
Very few dealers around here of $20K + boats have new in stock inventory, most are built to order these days.  The dealer in Madison, WI has one Compac 23 Pilothouse, one Catalina 22 sport, a Precision 18, a Precision 185, a couple of Hobie Cats, a Compac Picnic Cat, and a bunch of kayaks and stand up paddle boards.  Only two @ $20K+.  Dealer in St. Louis has nothing new over $10K.   Other parts of the country may be different.   

Sailnet had an interesting thread on used boat prices and some people were saying that 30% off asking is not unreasonable in the current economy.  I don't know if I agree with that, but if you want to go there, I don't see why you couldn't.  The brokers work for the seller and aren't obligated to be transparent.  The higher the sale price, the higher their commision.  They are obligated to present all offers though, even if they think it is too low.   I've been looking at boats for about a year and the used market is very interesting.  Not many used 2006-2010 boats out there for sale.  I don't think many were sold back then due to the economy.  Catalina 22s are a dime a dozen and prices are all over the map depending on year and condition.  Well priced boats in good condition go fast.  Overpriced boats sit on the market for a long time.   I do know that a similarlly equipped new Elipcse would sticker at about $33K, I would guess you could actually buy one for around $30K (10% off).  I'm under half that.  The boat wasn't advertised on any of the regular sites, so it kind of fell under the radar.  Good luck, wish I could offer more, but that's all I got right now. 

Vectordirector

[Vectordirector]

I replied to your PM.  My boat has the 6 hp suzuki, 60 lbs according to their specs.  I woudn't sweat it.  20 lbs =3 gallons of water.  unless you are going to have to move it on and off the boat.  60 I could barely manage, 80 no way.  I'm 5'5" and 180 lbs.  Out of shape and pushing 50.  Your situation is likely different.  Electric start is nice, and 2 cylinder motors are supposed to be smoother than single cylinders.  The 8 costs about $600 more new.  Plusses and minusses. 

Number 19 is the one at Punta Gorda Yacht Brokers?  If he said there is an offer on the table it sounds like he is brokering it not selling it outright.  There are so few Eclipses on the market it is tough to know what it is really worth.  Brokerage is tougher still because you can't talk to the seller directly to find out his "situation".  The broker may tell you if you ask.  Around here brokerage fees are typically 7-10%.  Your bank or insurance company might be able to give you a pretty solid number as will a good surveyor. 
If the boat is still available, the owner might just be testing the waters  or out of touch with what boats are really worth these days. 
I think 50% of the price of a new one for a 2005 with similar equipment is reasonable.  If that boat is as nice as it looks, in my market I would think $15-16K.  Florida add or subtract as you think appropriate.  Chicago prices tend to drop at the end of September because sellers don't want to pay for winterizing and storage. 

Number 17 is the Orlando boat that is "new"?  Not really as the warranty has expired.  From what the seller has told you this sounds like a better "situation" for a buyer looking to get a deal.  I don't know what the mark up is on a boat like this but I'm sure a previous dealer has much less invested than a previous retail buyer does if they bought new.  Trailer will probably need new tires @ $200.   you said you got him down to about $17500?  so around $19K with the trailer.  an uneducated guess is that's probably his cost and he may not go below it.  I would add $1700 to that number for a motor and tires for a $21K bottom line.  $9 K less than new but $5-6K more than the other one. 

Is the Orlando boat worth $5-6K more?  I don't know. Your call.   carry-on and Salty19 bring sage advice. 

good luck and fair winds,

Vectordirector

[Eagleye]

Beradthefish,
I can understand your situation.  I too searched for an Eclipse for more than 6 months. Fortunately it was during the winter months and I finally found the "Madame" in March.  I too will have to agree that the listings are all over inflated.  Online research leaves us with only "asking" prices.  After talking to a few of the sellers it became very obvious that most could be had for much less.  

During my search I put together a list of all the Eclipses that I found.   PM me your email address and I would be happy to email it to you.  I have not updated it since March so some of the links may be broke.

Best of Luck to You,
Allen

[beradthefish]

This all useful conversation and i appreciate it!

I went to SailingTexas. Great suggestion, I never would have thought that going to the photos section would be so helpful. My initial feeling is that I'm getting a mostly fair deal if the "new" #17 in Orlando is just that. New sails, rigging, bottom paint is good, trailer is serviceable, inside isn't mold/mildewey etc. all of which the owner/dealer claims

Thanks for the PM vector, I appreciate your candor. Regarding the motor, it's not a selling point for me, I would rather go smaller. I could heft it, but I think I'd be more comfortable with a smaller and newer model and I'm willing to pay for it. Autopilot however is a selling point for me, that's something I want, but will also willingly buy one.

All the rest of the stuff I have. Radio, PFDs, anchor, fenders, etc.

You are exactly correct in your guess of the overall price by the way. The other boat in Punta Gorda is the same price, just comes with a couple more things which given their age don't really add up to a whole lot in the long run.

Eagle eye- will do, and thanks.

[beradthefish]

I have a couple elementary questions about the Eclipse in general. Keep in mind that I'm a monohull newbie, never had a boat with a cabin or electricity so:

1- how does the switch panel and the boat wiring in general work?  Is it that a deep cycle battery feeds into the switch panel which branches out to the various electrical loads on the boat? The battery must be charged either at home or by some means while underway such as the outboard or solar? Are there any 12v power points?

2- does anyone have a digitized rigging guide for the Eclipse? I want to have a good handle on that information before I make the trip to FL.

3- how is the eclipse tied down on the Performance trailer?

4- where are the navigation lights located? In videos I think I see the green/red on the bow pulpit, what about the stern white?

Random tidbit of info: according to the broker selling #20 (the actual number of the aforementioned #19), Com-PAC is currently building hull #69.

Thanks!

[Eagleye]

Brad,
You are correct about the electrical system.  Basically it goes from battery to the fuse panel then to the loads.  On my Eclipse # 42 the fuse panel is a Sea Dog 42110:

http://www.sea-dog.com/groups/1946-aluminum-vertical-rocker-switch-panel

I have one 12v plug-in next to the fuse panel.

I remove my battery to charge it and have done so only once since the beginning of the season only because we were going away on a trip for a week.  The only power I use is for the GPS and depth finder so it doesn't drain it much.  

As you suspected the bow light is on the pulpit and the white stern is port side of the stern arch.





I strap my Eclipse to the trailer in 2 places. One heavy strap goes over the cockpit close to the companionway.  I padded the strap to protect the gelcoat.  In order to keep the strap away from the hull I made SST extensions that attach the bottom of the u-bolt.








The second strap is lighter and I attach it to the bow cleat then down and forward to the trailer.  I found that seems to stabilize the boat from rocking on the keel.








I also modified my bobstay for easier launch and retrieval but I will save that for another post.

I don't have any information about the rigging but it is pretty straightforward.  I'll try to get some pics if that will help.

Thanks on the info abut # 69.  Tyler Hutchins told me at a boat show that he would guess that there were 50 or 60.  I suppose that really tells the story as to why they are hard to find.

Best to You,
Allen

[beradthefish]

Eagle Eye - Thank you very much for the above post, that answers my questions and then some.  If you have the time to do so, some rigging-related pics would be great, but I'm sure I'll figure it out, the manual will help.

I met with the owner today, my wife and I had lunch with him and his wife, they happened to be passing through the area.  Their story and history with sailing was interesting, the gentleman is pushing 80.  He was one of the first Com-Pac dealers.  Of course I interrogated him about the boat for a while, he reaffirmed his claims of newness - hopefully all is well when I make the trip to Orlando next Thursday.

What sort of deep cell battery did you use for your Eclipse?  I'd like to start researching those here soon.

Thanks again!

Edit: What are the wooden boards for at the front of your trailer?

[Eagleye]

Edit: What are the wooden boards for at the front of your trailer?

The boards are a place to stand while retrieving the boat.  Last Sunday's launch was so slippery it was imposable to stand up without hanging on to something... fender, door handle, ect..  The boards were a safe refuge and are much better than trying to balance on the steel.  I got the idea from a post here on the forum.

Allen