Compac 16 Performance and Stability

[Tadpole]

The current "threefootitis" thread on this site raised some interesting questions for me about the 16's performance and stability.  Somewhat limited pointing ability has always been a point of contention with the 16's.  Considering its shoal keel, small headsail, and flat, aluminum rudder, the complaints are probably justifiable.  That said, she is under- canvassed by design and obviously wasn't meant to be a racer.  John Deere tractors are slow but have you ever tried to plow with a Ferrari?  

Within reason, I've never minded an extra tack or two when beating up a channel.  You're on the water...you're sailing...not much to complain about in my humble opinion.  If the situation is critical, fire up the motor.

It is my understanding that the 16 II's with their bowsprit point better and have less weather helm than the original design.  Add a foiled rudder and you have something most cruisers can live with.  Honestly, if we just wanted to go fast, we probably wouldn't be sailing in the first place.

I live in Eastern Oklahoma where wind speeds are often 15 – 20 with gusts to 30.  I will be trailering every time I sail.  I'm also a gunkholer...probably stems from my canoeing days.  In all of my reading and research, I keep coming up with the Compac 16II with foiled rudder as the best possible boat for me.  I am open to other suggestions although I don't want the hassles associated with a swing keel

I've never sailed a 16, in fact you never see any around this area.  That's why it would be great to hear from some of you experienced 16 sailors to get first-hand comments on how your boat performs in various conditions.  What you like and don't like.

Also, still trying to hitch a ride on one if some willing soul lives within a few hours drive from Muskogee.

Tadpole

[Pacman]

Tadpole,

I think you have accurately described the the C-16 and I agree with your assessment of its strengths and weaknesses. 

It is a well designed, versatile, and easy to sail little boat.  Lots of fun with no worries and very little work to set up.

Although I am leaning toward keeping my C-16, the extra room in a C-19 would definitely be a plus for the Admiral.

[Salty19]

I would agree about the foiled rudder making a huge improvement.  So do new sails.

With that said, comparing apples to apples (16 vs 19 with foiled rudder and new sails on both), the 19 is quicker, MUCH MUCH more stable, points higher, tacks easier (more weight to carry it through a tack), has way more storage space and about a foot wider cockpit.  I believe it also has less leeway, although my experience here may be a factor of just becoming a better sailor over the years.

I also never liked going up on deck on the 16..always felt like I was going to fall off. Not so with the 19..wide decks and plenty of stability.

If you are going to be trailering all the time, I can't leap out of my chair and say get a 19.  It is a bit more work to setup.  Not just raising the mast, but you need a ladder to get up into the cockpit from land, need to position the stays a little more more precisely before raising, sails are larger and take longer to unroll and fold. It's not a huge deal, but if you're lazy about rigging you'll be happier with a 16.

Agree with the others...if you'll have a slip or will be doing a lot of boat camping the 19 is the way to go.  If you're going to be trailering always and just out for a day, the 16 is easier to deal with.

[wes]

After a year and a half of sailing my 19, I would say Salty is exactly right. The 19 is a heavy, substantial little ship. She needs a well maintained trailer, a strong tow vehicle, and some care taken when choosing a ramp. She can be a real handful to retrieve back onto the trailer when the wind is blowing, the waves are high or the power boats are throwing their wakes around. All that being said, I would not trade her stability and gentle behavior for anything. She is ever predictable, safe, and ladylike. A real little yacht in every way. My wife and kids love her, which means they are willing to go sailing with me almost as often as I want. That's important, because if you are trailer-sailing a 19, you are going to require a crew. There's a reason most of the single-handed 19 sailors on this site keep their boats in a slip or mooring. Raising the mast and getting the 19 off and on the trailer are jobs requiring two people. That's probably my only regret - if I can't get a crew, I can't go sailing.

Wes

[capt_nemo]

Tadpole,

For ease of rigging, launching, and retrieving have you considered a Sun Cat. It was intentionally designed with an underpowered rig and doesn't require reefing 'til around 20 mph of air. Would be ideal for the heavy winds you cite.

I absolutely love mine, and even added a substantial bowsprit to accomodate various headsails.

Here's a photo of a seatrial for the homemade "working" jib to give you an idea of how the boat looks under sail. Winds were gusty that day so I tied in a reef to concentrate on the jib and not have to worry about getting overpowered.



Best wishes in your search for the best boat for YOU!

capt_nemo

[Tadpole]

Cap't_ Nemo,


Unfortunately the realities of life sometime kick in.  I've been in love with cat boats for as long as I can remember.  Workhorse of the old Eastern seaboard fishing fleets, stable, not fast but who cares?  Salty looking, I could go on and on.  I've lusted after a Sun Cat for quite a while.  I've even had the opportunity to trailer, launch and sail one a couple of times.  However, they are still way beyond my price range.

The Mastendr system is perfect for our Oklahoma lakes.  Lots of fairly low bridges (24 -26 ft clearance range) to navigate.  Lake Eufaula is nearly 8o miles long  but you have to go under several low bridges to sail her length.  With a mast height of 21', the C-16 clears all the bridges (at normal pool level), that said, I'd even overlook my aversion for swing keels for a Sun Cat.

I've followed your adventures on the forum for some time.  What a beautiful, capable little vessel.

Maybe I'll win the lottery.

Tadpole

[capt_nemo]

Tadpole,

Good luck in your quest for a CP16. It is a good choice.

capt_nemo

[kearns]

Tadpole,

You have done your research and you are right on the mark.  I have sailed and owned many boats under 20 feet, nearly all of which would sail circles around the CP 16, which I bought in January and refurbished.  I have the 16/II version with the bowsprit and the helm is rather neutral.  I just ordered the foil rudder in hopes that it will even slightly improve the upwind performance and tacking.  Off wind handling is ok, but upwind the boat simply will not hold a straight line (it slides to leward).  The keel is far too shallow to give a decent grip through the water.  When tacking, the boat wants to go in circles (which I attribute to the flat rudder).  However, I often sail alone and I enjoy sailing in some heavy winds.  I have put the CP 16 through her paces and she has always brought me home safely.  The mast is easy to raise by one person.  The boat launches and retrieves easily.  Everything about the boat is simple.  Virtually every boat is the result of design compromises, and the CP 16 is no exception.  Time will tell if I stay with the CP16 ... I long for some more speed and responsiveness.  But for now, and in the conditions in which I sail, it is probably the best bet.

Kevin

[Tadpole]

kearns,

Thanks for your reply.  I'll be very curious to hear your opinion of the foiled rudder once you get it.  Since you've sailed her for a while with the standard flat rudder, you'll have something to compare her performance to.  Please keep us posted.

Tadpole

[Billy]

Tadpole, check this out...

http://fayar.craigslist.org/boa/3070327844.html

Not a Com-Pac but still a great boat. I like the WWP 15s. And I have heard they are every bit as stable as a CP 16. And while it does have a swing keel, it should be small and light enough to not cause too many problems. And it points higher too.

And you gotta love that price!

[Tadpole]

Billy,

The price certainly is right!  I've looked into the Potters, both the 15 and the 19.  I have friends who have owned them, and the consensus seems to be that they do fine under normal conditions, but they have a very nasty habit of going turtle when things get rough.  I've also read several reports on-line that would confirm that. 

Sorry, but I don't need that kind of excitement on the water anymore.  Finding the right sailboat is like finding a spouse...except harder!

And while I'm here....Happy Independence Day to all of you and your families!

Tadpole  (a proud veteran!)

[kickingbug1]

   i think you should have little trouble finding a good 16. i see one parked infront of a farm on i 70 near greenville illinois. it looks to be for sale but im not sure. they made a lot of them and they are always reasonably priced. a lot of people love their 19s and i would be lying if i didnt like that boat a lot. i will probably continue to sail my 16 for some years in the future. as i only daysail the extra cabin space for me isnt necessary.the ease of trailering and rigging a 16 cant be beat and with a foiled rudder they dont tack all that bad. on good days we sail ours with about 14 degrees of heel or more. it makes for some exiting times but no real worries about overpowering the boat. she goes over pretty far  if you push her but hardens up and charges along. the foiled rudder (ida-sailor in our case) makes all the difference. that and a new mainsail have improved our boats performance greatly. some day i hope to buy an eclipse. i love the open transom and the three point rig with mast tender. i think that might be the perfect boat for us. the only problem is the cost. too much at least for now.

[Shawn]

"and the consensus seems to be that they do fine under normal conditions, but they have a very nasty habit of going turtle when things get rough.  I've also read several reports on-line that would confirm that.  "

A number of articles/stories in Small Craft Advisor have said the same thing. What is worse is when the 15s go turtle they are apparently *very* hard to recover. When it is swamped the top of the centerboard trunk is under the water line. So when trying to bail it out it just keeps filling from the trunk.

Shawn

[Tadpole]

NOTE: I posted a similar message in the "Initial stability when stepping aboard a C-16" thread.

Thanks to everyone who has commented on this topic.  After reading the various responses, it is clear that people have different perspectives on things.  Not necessarily right or wrong....just different.  Human nature!  For those of us seeking definitive answers, it can be frustrating...but then life can be frustrating.

Before retiring, I worked for many years as a professional photographer and videographer.  I have decided that once I get my C-16 (the decision has been made), I plan to produce a video addressing many of the issues we've been discussing here on the forum.

I'll show a lard-butt like me (210 lbs) stepping on the gunnels so viewers can determine for themselves if they think the C-16 is "tippy".   I'll do a two-camera shoot while tacking in various conditions so you can watch the compass swing while I'm beating to windward.  I'll show launching and loading, and a host of other issues as I think of them.

I would like to address all the questions I had when I started thinking about buying a Compac 16.  Maybe that would eliminate some of the confusion and frustration for the next poor soul who is at least considering a Compac 16.

My plans for the C-16 have always included videography...but that's another post.

Tadpole

[kickingbug1]

tadpole looking forward to your videos. in regards to stability, im 6'5" and 208 but i dont see the need to stand on the gunnel. i only go forward to set the anchor (made a roller furler) and i havent fallen overboard yet. the size and weight of the 19 has always impressed me and a few months ago i got close to contacting mike greene about buying his. but im lazy and i still like to trailer sail single handed. the simple rigging and launching of the 16 suits me at least for now. between my ida rudder and new mainsail (buying a new jib in the off season) i think she points pretty well. a centerboard would help but then there are the centerboard issues. i have heard all of the potter pros and cons but have to say i cant get past their butt ugly looks. the cp 16s and 19s look like swimsuit models by comparison. hey you still have a month to get your 16 and make it to our illinois rendezvous at carlyle lake.