Genoa on Roller Furl vs. Standard Jib

[TimW]

Hi All -
       I have some general questions about alternative jib setups.  When I bought my 86 CP 16 it came with a (I believe 160%) Genoa installed on a rollerfurl - though I also have the loose standard equipment jib.  I was warned that the Genoa would often be overpowered for  typical days on SF Bay (I usually launch out of Redwood City) and my limited experience thus far confirms this.  My question is: How much difference should one expect between using a partially furled Genoa vs. a standard jib?  I really like the convenience of the already installed rollerfurl but wonder how much performance/manuverability I'm sacrificing by using it let out to only 70% or so.  My other question is: when using it in this fashion should I run the jib sheets inside or outside the shrouds?
Many thanks in advance for any advice....
             TimW

[wes]

Hi Tim - although I sail on the opposite side of the continent from you (coastal North Carolina) my experience has been similar. My 19 came from the previous owner with a 150 genoa on a roller furler. I love it for lake sailing and for light wind days at the coast. But it is overpowered for windy days, and the performance when heavily furled is not very good. I am planning to order a smaller jib (probably a 110) to use on days when the wind forecast is high. It's not difficult to change sails on the furler (I have a CDI FF2), at least not when you're at the dock or on the trailer in the driveway. The furler has an internal halyard for this purpose. Not quite as easy as dropping a hanked-on jib (you have to bend on a messenger line so you don't lose the end of the halyard when you drop the sail), so I probably wouldn't do it while out on the water. The 110 could then be furled down to practically a storm jib without compromising the shape too much. That's my thinking, anyway.

Wes

[capt_nemo]

TimW,

Consider leaving the furled Genoa on and ADDING a second, quick release, tension lever equipped forestay for the hanked on jib. Hook it up when needed and stow it out of the way when not needed. And, while you are at it, add a set of reef points to your jib to serve as a heavy weather headsail along with a reefed main.

It isn't difficult to make and rig a second forestay which would provide you with a great deal of flexibility.

I once had a Bayfield 32 cutter with a quick release staysail stay equipped with a Hyfield Lever for tensioning. Released and stowed it out of the way to fly a Cruising Spinnaker through the large unobstructed foretriangle.

I recently made a masthead forestay and second set of masthead shrouds for my Sun Cat to use my homemade 4' Bowsprit and larger headsails in light air. Works great!



Make it easy to fly whatever headsail is best for the given wind condition. Just be sure to size the cable and fittings carefully, for safety's sake.

Hope this provides food for thought.

capt_nemo

[JBC]

Tim, I'm interested also in your questions re furler v standard jib.  I have a '90 CP16 with a CDI FF2 furler on a bow sprit.  (PO installed the furler and told me the FF2 was overkill, but I happen to think it's a good match).  I don't know if my genoa is as large as yours; the clew of my genoa laps the shrouds by about 4", so mine is probably smaller.  I have sailed CP16s with the standard jib and genoas (hanked on and furlers), and with furled genoas I have sailed with reduced sail.  Frankly, I don't think there would be a whole lot of difference in performance between a furled genoa that equaled roughly the 110% standard jib in size, at least on a CP16.  Certainly the shape of the furled genoa is different from the standard jib (for one thing, the foot of the furled genoa is higher off the deck than the standard jib).  But I really like the convenience, as you mention, of having a furler and the ability to quickly reduce headsail area while still having some headsail control in stout winds.  And as you mention, you might play with sheets inside/outside the shrouds with reduced headsail, just to see if that makes a difference.

One point: Make sure and adjust the genoa sheet angle when furled (move the blocks forward a bit).

BTW.  I also keep a 24' Venture in Redwood City (though I live in CO).  I thought about rigging a furler for that old boat, but decided I didn't need it for the SF Bay conditions.  I have a jib that's even slightly smaller than the standard jib that came with the rig, and it's plenty of headsail for most days south of the San Mateo Bridge!  I rigged a downhaul for the jib, and simply pull it down if conditions get too messy...but that old Venture is a different beast than a CP16 re performance.  It will move out on all points of sail on the main alone, and tack easily as well.  And with a reefed main alone, it will handle most of what the South Bay can deliver.

Jett

[TimW]

Thanks much everyone for your comments and suggestions - good to hear others have had the same experience.  I had never
thought of adding a second jib leaving the rollerfurl in place -I'll look into that more - and will probably just try the experiment some day of
swithcing them out to see how much difference it makes.   Thanks again....Tim

[Salty19]

I dunno..not sure it would sail as well with a furled genny leading the air flow across the jibs luff. Not much room up there on a 16. Only way to know is to try it...

[skip1930]

" ...My question is: How much difference should one expect between using a partially furled... "

Stop right here! Furling. All the way out or all the way in. Nothing in between. IMHO. And I don't know why...other than that smaller and smaller triangle keeps creeping up the mast as it is furled in. Moment of effort goes higher just as your trying to 'right' the ship. Hummmmmmm??

skip.

[Salty19]

I respectfully disagree skip. 

If the furler is BOTH a furler and reefing mechanism, which our Harken OOAL furler most certainly is, reefing is very much acceptable should the need arise.
I'm probably reefed on our 140% 30 percent of the time, especially during the higher wind days of late fall.

Balance is WAY better partially furled than with either the sail all the way out (overpowered) or all the way in (weather helm and tough to tack sometimes).
Now if you're reefed all the time on a huge genny, thats justification for a smaller sail- no question..but all the way in/out is not taking advantage of your options.

The decreased sail area more than compensates for the increased height of the center of effort in terms of lateral force. 

[Greene]

I'd agree with Salty on this one.  Two weeks ago we were sailing our 23 in wind of 15 to 18 knots with gusts at 20 to 25 knots.  We had to have the main reefed down and we found that it she was much happier sailing with the headsail furled a matching percentage.  I like being able to balance the two sails, so a partially furled sail works for me.

Mike

[JBC]

I think the original meaning of "furl" in sailing terminology has changed by common usage, so now we often say to "furl" a sail when we really mean to "reef" it. Whatever, my experience has been that furling/reefing (reducing the area of) the headsail on my ComPac 16 is a nice option while sailing, especially since the 16, in my opinion, with such a short waterline, really needs some headsail in most conditions to help balance the boat (can't move that keel back a bit when sailing on the main alone!).

I agree with Skip that reefing the headsail on a roller furler doesn't just reduce the area of the sail, but repositions it (especially causing the foot of the sail to ride higher off the deck).  Still, I've found that is a fair trade off on the 16, when conditions are demanding.

Jett

[Pacman]

Most Com Pacs,  certainly the 16s, have a bit of weather helm that worsens when the wind pipes up.

Another solution is to leave the standard hank-on jib up and reef the main.

At least, that balances the boat and works for me.

That might work with a roller furling (not a roller reefing) jib too.

[capt_nemo]

Years ago on my Catalina 25 Sloop, when reducing sail the first step was to REEF THE MAIN, and if, after that, you needed to reduce sail area further you would reduce area in your jib (headsail). Since I had a standard 110 Lapper, I followed Lin and Larry Pardey's recommendation "reef don't buy" and had a set of reef points sewn into the Lapper. When it came time to reduce jib area I simply relaxed the Jib Halyard, went forward and secured the reef tack, relocated my "quick release" sheets to the new clew, tied the unused foot cloth up, and retensioned the halyard.

One day out in the northern Chesapeake it started to really blow and I asked my wife if she wanted to head back to the Marina or tie in some reefs and see just what "Genie" would do. Tied reefs in both main and jib and although we punched through the short period chop, sending spray all the way back to the cockpit, the boat balanced exceptionally well. We had a most exciting and enjoyable sail that day! Brings a smile to my face just telling the tale!

capt_nemo

[Billy]

Rolling the sail up changes it's shape. It starts curved along the luff and then flattens out towards the leech, just like any foil or wing. Rolling it in more than 10 to 15% and you lose the foil shape of a sail and you might as well fly a bed sheet. And good luck making any headway. These com-pacs need all the help they can get when sailing to weather, and rolling up the genny does just the opposite.

I do think you can roll it up a few wraps, but not enough to really reduce the area. It reefing the main is not enough, then I would suggest a smaller foresail.

I tend to lean towards skip on this one.

[JBC]

I'm very happy to see some discussion about sailing the 16 and how it behaves in "interesting" conditions.  But I want to point out that comparing the 16 to larger boats and how one manages the conditions/rigging on those ain't entirely a fair comparison!  Capt Nemo: I very much like your strategy for reefing your Catalina 25 lapper, because I also sail a 24' boat, and your experience and suggestions certainly apply to my standard jib on that boat.  But I point out that going up on deck in a 16' boat in rough water is different than doing the same on a 25' boat.  (I'll stick to my roller reefing scheme on my 16 when needing to reduce sail area there, even though I have life lines on my 16!).

Pacman is right about weather helm.  But what to do about it is a challenge when the wind pipes up.  Once my wife and I were trying out a new (to us) ComPac 16 with a roller furler in very strong winds.  I made a serious error by leaving out a critical pin on the furler drum when I reassembled it, and out on the water the pin's absence caused the genoa to fly up the forestay as though it were a spinnaker.  Couldn't get it down in the high winds, and was thinking of climbing up on the foredeck to pull it down when I realized all of a sudden we were within less than 10' of a lee shore, and that the 16 wasn't about to tack away into strong winds on a beam reach with no headsail.  I gambled and gybed at the last possible moment.  I'm not kidding: we missed scraping the rocky shore by inches and were able to sail away on a broad reach.

I learned three things that day.  1) My wife will forever think I'm a great sailor (which is nice though I know better); 2), a ComPac 16 can gybe on a dime!; and 3) this boat can handle heavy weather very well for a small boat.  Which is why I'm still sailing one!

Jett

[Greene]

Threads like this one are are the reason I check in so frequently.  Sailing is an art and learning from all the artists out there provides a great education.  I love the fact that we can have differing opinions and discuss them openly so that everyone can benefit from the content.  As my hero Jethro on the Beverly Hillbillys used to say, "Co'mence to s'plainen!"

Mike