Winches on Eclipses?

[Eagleye]

          Suzie and I have completed 2 lessons at a sailing school on Lake George, NY and both classes ended up being in 15 to 25 MPH winds.  (Not the best situation for beginners but we can save that for another post.)  The first class we went out in a Rainbow 24 and last Sunday we were in a Capri 22, which was closer to the configuration of our Eclipse. 

   In both cases in order to trim in the jib sails the winches were an absolute necessity, which made us wonder why the Eclipse has no winches for the jib sheets. The Eclipse sheets feed through the fairleads and then through a cam-cleat on the aft edge of the cabin top.   The Com-Pac 19's and 23's both have winches so why did Com-Pac choose not to put them on the Eclipse and should we be looking at installing a set? 

   We have not taken her out yet, mostly due to lack of experience, so we were wondering if anyone has thoughts on this subject.  I have no problem raising the mainsail so I don't feel a winch is necessary for the main halyard. 

         CPYOA has been an incredibly valuable learning site!  It has made a huge difference in our learning experience.
Thank you again to all.
Allen

[Billy]

Funny, I would of thought they would have had them. I guess the guys at Hutchins figured you didn't need 'em.

[Salty19]

The Eclipse is very similar in size to the CP19, but it's a fractional rig therefore theoretically the jib carries less sail area. Check the specs to compare.

I don't find the winches needed on the CP19. If you need to sheet in during high winds, just point up into the wind briefly to release sheet pressure and pull. At all other times, some muscle works fine--sailing gloves give great grip and lets you pull harder the without them.

Imagine you won't need them but don't listen to me, I've never sailed one!

[skip1930]

Yes no winches...that is troubling. Hold down Ctrl key and tap + to enlarge pictures and font. And - to shrink back down.
Let me think about this...time to go to work.

skip.

[wes]

I think (actually, I know) that Salty is a better sailor than me, because I'd really hate to give up my winches. Possibly one factor is headsail size, though. I have a 155% genoa on my 19, and when the wind picks up there is some serious force on that sail; no way I can trim it in close-hauled without winches. Maybe with a much smaller working jib this would be less of an issue.

My 19 (1988 vintage) came with single speed Lewmar 6 winches, and they are still available at very reasonable prices from Defender. That's really all the winch you need - no need for bigger ones or 2-speed ones on these small boats. But they do need to be mounted carefully with solid backup below. The 19 has some plywood glassed under the deck to support the force of the winches. I wonder whether the factory provided anything like that on the Eclipse for future winch mounting? If not I would use very large stainless fender washers, or better yet a single piece of stainless plate drilled to match the four hole pattern of the winch.

This is the kind of thing that I'd probably call or email Gerry at Hutchins to discuss, actually.

Wes

[EclipseGuy]

I have a Com-Pac Eclipse and have not noticed a need for winches. The headsail isn't very big, so it isn't really difficult to handle. I do use sail gloves when it is windy though.

I have had a couple of other sailboats of a similar size that did have winches but I never used them. The small winches are not self-tailing, so it made their use a bit cumbersome (takes two hands). It was easier just to run the sheet directly through the cam-cleat so I could use just one hand.

It all comes down to comfort though. You might want to live with the Eclipse the way that it is for a while and see what you think. If you find that it is difficult or uncomfortable for you to work the headsail as it is, then that would be the time to start researching winches.

[skip1930]

The Com-Pac Eclipse is the replacement for the CP-19 and I without question need the mechanical advantage of a winch. With just a 155% lapper up I was able to put the rail in the water. Such fun!.

I also use the winch to tighten up my main halyard and to do the tighten up on the Harkin '00' head of the furler.

skip.

[EclipseGuy]

The Eclipse headsail is only a 115, and it is a fractional rig. It is really quite small.

The mainsail setup is a bit different than most sailboats due to the masttndr system. The interesting thing about it is that the boom has to be able to slide up the mast when the boat is rigged for sailing, and down the mast when the rig is folded for transport or storage. Because of this the mainsail halyard feels like it has less pressure when raising the sail (the tack isn't locked down when raising the sail). I typically pull the halyard so that the head of the sail is all the way up (the boom and tack of the sail actually rise a bit with the sail), then I lock the halyard and pull the downhaul tight and then lock the downhaul. This lets me use gravity as an assist when tightening the luff of the sail, plus it assures that the head of the sail is always all the way to the top of the mast (this is important if you want the boom to clear the arch when tacking).

I suppose a winch would help with the mainsail halyard, and I have seen a photo or two of Eclipses with a halyard winch, but if the above steps are followed then raising the main is quite easy without a winch.

I am not a brute-force, anti-winch person (if there is such a thing). I have winches on my larger sailboats and I definitely use them. It is just that the Eclipse has some nice design features that make it easy to handle the sails and I haven't missed the winches on this specific sailboat. I guess it is another one of those things that makes the Eclipse easy to rig, easy to sail, and easy to take care of.

Even transporting the Eclipse is easier than a lot of other small boats because not only do I not have to worry about removing and storing the boom, mainsail and lines, but I can even leave the motor on the motor mount instead of having to remove it and store it in the vehicle or on a separate trailer mount. 

[Eagleye]

Wow!   Thanks for all the different perspectives.  I knew I could count on you all.  
At this point winches will be a decision for a future time.  I will go with the sailing gloves for now and then get a feel for the need of winches from there.  (Hmm....  A matching set of gloves?  Needed an idea for an anniversary gift anyway.)
 
I was not able to find the specs on the Eclipse's sail area except for the total, which they list as 200 sq. ft.   As it is I am replacing the luff extrusion on the CDI furler so I just measured the jib and found it to be approximately 71 sq. ft.  That is significantly smaller than the 19's while the Total SA is a bit larger than the 19's.   The numbers don't mean much to me at this time.  I just have to get her in the water!!!!

BTW.... The reason I had to replace the luff extrusion was because the PO left it draped over the stern arch for 2 years.  It looked more like a hockey stick and it took 2 people to roll out the sail.



EclipseGuy... From my short experience of sailing my Eclipse (in the backyard) I totally agree with you about the main halyard.  Relax the downhaul, boom vang and sheets, then raising the main all they way to the top is not a problem. The gooseneck will slide up the mast slot several inches but when you bear down on the downhaul it drops back into position and tightens up the luff with plenty of boom clearance over the stern arch.
What size motor do you have and do you add a strap from the motor to the stern arch for a little more support when trailering?

Skip.....We too had the water coming over the rails the last 2 Sundays at our classes.   It took me an hour to get the smile off my face...Suzie wasn't impressed.  "You never forget your first time."

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts, opinions and perspectives.   They are greatly appreciated!

Allen

[Billy]

Eagleye,

Have you attached your furler/front stay? I bet when step the mast and you tighten it down it might straighten out on it's own. Could you leave the mast stepped in the drive way for a few days/weeks?

Then you might not need to replace the extrusion.

[Eagleye]

Eagleye,

Have you attached your furler/front stay? I bet when step the mast and you tighten it down it might straighten out on it's own. Could you leave the mast stepped in the drive way for a few days/weeks?

Then you might not need to replace the extrusion.

Thanks Billy,
Yeah, I had her rigged for 2 weeks and it did straighten just a bit but it showed no real promise of working decently again.  The new extrusions arrived yesterday and I should have it installed today. 
Anyone want to buy a real long hockey stick?

Allen

[EclipseGuy]

Hey Eagleye,

I have the Tohatsu 6HP Sailpro. It is the extra long shaft (25"). It is basically the same weight as the 4 and 5 HP Tohatsu motors but is has the extra long shaft, high thrust prop and the charger. I believe it is higher compression than the other motors since it is more difficult to pull when starting when compared to the 5HP version I had on one of the other boats.

When I tow I just adjust the tilt so that the motor is straight up and down, that way it isn't hanging out and acting like a lever arm. It cannot move much when it is mounted and is straight up and down. For long trips it is easy to wrap a bungie around the shaft and the motor mount to hold it more secure.

I was concerned that the extra long shaft would prevent me from towing with the motor on the mount, but it clears just fine.

- John

[Salty19]

Wes--Indeed, I use a 140% genoa, not a 155% and switch out to a 110% on stronger winds or furl up the sail with 2 or 3 turns around the furler (making the 140% more like a 100%).  So my sheet pressure is indeed lower than yours. I also wrap the sheet around the winch once as opposed to 2 or 3 times.  Much easier than multiple wraps.

I'm not particular strong...average in fact. Sailing gloves make a HUGE difference in sheet grip and reduces pinched skin, and probably accounts mostly for my perception of not needing them.  Also as mentioned, just head up into the wind a little bit to release sheet tension, then pull and bear off.  Quick and easy.

[kickingbug1]

      salty is right-----good advice for any boat actually. i dont use gloves when i sail my 16. it would probably be easier but i would probably lose them anyway. someday we will own an eclipse. it appears as simple as a 16 to rig and tow and man is that bugger beautiful.

[Toolman]

      salty is right-----good advice for any boat actually. i dont use gloves when i sail my 16. it would probably be easier but i would probably lose them anyway. someday we will own an eclipse. it appears as simple as a 16 to rig and tow and man is that bugger beautiful.

Hey, Kick... remember the mittens with the cord that ran through the sleeves of your little winter coat?  I think we called them "Idiot Mittens"!  Just a thought... !