C-25 vs C-23

[regalis]

Hello all. I am new here, and I was just doing some research on the C-25 and 23. I am looking into traierables of course, and I am planning to sail on the SF bay. Its very challanging, so I need a good sea-worthy boat. Moreover, I would like to do some near-coastal, say 20miles max from coast, is the com-pac for me? My other main question is, why does no one seem to own a 25? What the differances, and disadvantages and advantages of each particular model? Thank you for your assistance,



Cliff

[curtis]

The CP23 would be fine but not as delivered if you want to sail in the typical near gale conditions in late afternoon near the Golden Gate bridge.  I sail in similar conditons on outer Cape Cod though strong conditions are not as predictable  See my personal web page which is currently at http://norumbega.faster-light.net/remote-access/

You'll want to sail with the stock jib, not a genoa.  The genoa is only good for light air, not a good sail at 12-15 knots and useless at 20 knots.  Roller furlers can only reduce sail area 20-30 percent tops before sail shape is hopelessly bad.  I sail with a 110.  Also get a boom vang and get a sailmaker to add a second reef in the main.  If you expect to sail in steady 30-35 knots then you might want a second smaller jib.  A traveller would be nice.

If you are looking used, the very early CP23s don't have a bowsprit.  Avoid them or plan on the cost of adding the bowsprit.  Also get a IdaMarine foiled rudder on an older CP23 or order it with a new CP23 (I think its an option now).  I'd avoid the CDI furler if you will be sailing in strong conditions.  Having bought a new CP23 almost 5 years ago, if I did it again I'd try to order without sails or a furler and add the furler and sails myself, going with Harken or ProFurl and North Sails or other better sailmaker.

If you want a trailerable cruising boat the CP23 is hard to beat.  If you want to race its not a good choice because it doesn't point nearly as well as lighter boats built for performance like the J boats (J/24?).  If you are cruising, the CP23 is a better choice than a performance boat.

I've been from outer Cape Cod (Atlantic side) to Nantucket, Marthas Vineyard, and Block Island.  Some sailing legs were just short of 60 nm.  I've been out in sustained 25 knots and 5 foot waves on a long open water sail and more than that when day sailing.  The CP23 is a real solid boat and it can take a lot.  You need the few changes I described to do this in relative comfort, but the boat takes it very well.  Cruising 20 miles a day up or down the coast or within SF Bay should be no problem at all.

I don't know much about the CP25 but comments about it have suggested that the CP27 is a much better boat.  The CP27 can be trailered with appropriate tow vehicle but needs assistance (a travellift or something like it) to launch and retrieve.  Not good for daysailing off the trailer, but OK if you put in for the season and prefer to drive the boat home yourself and keep it in your yard.

Curtis
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[Gil Weiss]

I have sailed SF Bay in a 35 foot sloop. It gets very challenging in the afternoon. You will get wet. Lots of wind, waves and ship traffic. I found it quite nice in the mornings. We typically sailed from Saucilito to Oakland. The return trips are tough and not always fun. There is a longer but much easier way using a channel that goes from Oakland east and then hooks around circumventing the bay.

Based on my sailing experience with our CP16, a CP27 would probably do OK out there. Very seaworthy boats.

[curtis]

As to the CP25, there has been some comment on that on the YahooGroups Compac forum.  Apparently Hutchinsons (Compac) bought the mold from someone that went out of business (you'll have to search the archives to find out who since I don't remember).  Performance has been described as disappointing compared to the CP23 and CP27.

The CP25 has a lot more interior room than the CP23, enclosed head and a real galley (small, but not a slide out camping stove and sink).  The CP27 gives you even more room but you loose the ability to back your pickup truck down the ramp and launch.  The CP25 pushes the limit.  Even the CP23 won't launch at all on many shallow ramps and would drown the tow vehicle if the ramp is very long but not steep enough.  The ramp I use is adequate but I do have to put the truck exhaust pipe under water to launch and retrieve.

Most people that have sailed some combination of the CP25 and others or know someone who has suggest you go with the CP23 or the CP27.  I've only sailed the CP23 so I can't comment from direct experience, only relay what I've read.  Could be a rumor but I doubt it.

Take a look at a CP23 or pictures of the interior.  If you can't live without an enclosed head or a more complete galley then consider the CP25 or CP27.  If you absolutely must launch from the trailer using your tow vehicle that probably rules out the CP27.  It would be best if you could sail each one of them but that might only be possible if you fly to Clearwater and even then might be hard to arrange.  I've never tried to ask for a demo sail.

Another consideration is tow vehicle.  Plenty of small trucks can tow 5,000 lbs which is adequate for CP23 (3,000) plus trailer, but too little for the others.  You need a heavy duty truck for a CP25 (?) or CP27 (6,000).  If you don't have tow vehicle for this, it could cost more than hiring out for a seasonal launch for the next 20 years and if you consider the added fuel costs if you replace a vehicle or the added insurance of adding another vehicle either professional launch or the smaller trailerables start to make a lot of sense.

Curtis

ps - Maybe Hutch can convince Toyota to move the hybrid Tundra forward on the schedule so we can all buy large trailerables and still get reasonable gas mileage.  Off topic though.

[regalis]

Thanks for the advice,






Cliff

[Craig]

Cliff,

Com-Pac bought the 25 molds from Watkins and redesigned the deck. To find out how the CP 25 would suit your sailing requirements post a question on the Watkins Yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/watkins

You'll probably also hear how Com-Pac "ruined" the Watkins 25.  :lol:

Craig

[Windhawk]

I have a brand new 23, and I'm still sorting it out.  The sailing & launching advice so far sounds spot on.  I like her (that's an understatment), and she has stunning good looks.  Very few folks walk by without commenting on the "shipppy" small boat.  It is small below, but more than adequate for a couple to go for a week or so.  The problem with small is that so many things get stuck in the nooks & crannies that they can be hard to find for a few days, and even when you know where something is, it may be a small project to dig it out.  That's a feature, not a problem.

A friend just bought a 25 (we'll be in side-by-side slips, he's the midwest dealer), and I haven't been on her yet.  I did see inside during construction, and the difference in cabin space may be something you'd want.  The shear on the 25 is almost flat, overall, I like the looks of the 23 much more.  I intend to cruise, so pointing ability wasn't much of a consideration once the diesel option was chosen.

I towed the 23 from Florida to Michigan with a 1/2 ton Chevy small-block pickup, no problem.  Com-Pac towed the 25 the same route (around the mountains as much as possible) with a big-block Chevy pickup.  Rich said he had no problems, but he's a man who tends to finish what he starts out to do, I'd say it was some bit of aggressive driving.  My friends truck is nearly identical to mine, and once the 25 was up to speed it was OK (going to the Detroit boat show last week), but the mountains or stop & go traffic would be a burden.

Another option might be the Eclipse, smaller, lighter, points higher, and likely a bit faster.  You'd be limited to two folks sleeping onboard, but I wouldn't want to sleep in a quarterberth on a 23 for more than one night in a row.  I've towed an Eclipse all over the midwest, and she follows along just fine... without the tandem axles or the trailer brakes of the 23.

If you can wait a couple of weeks, I can give you more insight on how all three boats sail...  The fun is just getting started around here!  

BTW, it takes two rather healthy people to launch a 23 from the trailer, one strong guy could do it, but as I near 50, that is not something I'd like to do alone.

[curtis]

BTW, it takes two rather healthy people to launch a 23 from the trailer, one strong guy could do it, but as I near 50, that is not something I'd like to do alone.

I've launched my CP23 alone many times and had very little difficulty.  I attribute that ease to my massively powerful body.  .... ..... OK I'll come clean and admit that I'm really a somewhat overweight and not very big person and the massively powerful description might not be all that accurate.

The hardest part is raising the mast.  With a 4:1 purchase and a little ingenuity its not all that hard.  It is a lot easier with two people and with a 4:1 purchase the other person can be a 12 year old handling that line (also not massively powerful).

Dunking the boat by yourself is no big deal.  Just put a line to it and back up until she floats off the trailer.  Then use the line to bring her to the dock and get in the truck and drive the trailer out of the water (or the other way around if there are stinkpotters that want to complain that you're in their way but don't want to offer to help).  At the ramp where I launch there is usually either no one there or another boater willing to help (and get you out of the way of the launching procession).

Retrieving is a little harder by yourself but only because its hard to get the keel lined up correctly with the stock trailer.  Replace the 2x4 keel boards with 2x10s and that too is easy by yourself.  Again the hard part is getting the mast down by yourself.

If you can get someone to help, by all means, do so.  If you can't then launching and retrieving is still doable but you'll need some mechanical advantage or it definitely won't be easy.

Curtis

[regalis]

I just had more one question:


For towing vehiciles what kinda truck are we talking? Basicly are we talking F150 ir 250 sorta range? Thanks,




Cliff

[Windhawk]

I've got a Chevy 1500, a half-ton equal to the F-150, with the 5.7 litre V8 (290 HP, 330 ft. lbs. torque), it handled the 23 quite well.  Com-Pac has the same truck as mine, but with the big-block engine in it, and they said no problem bringing the 25 to Michigan.  I reccomended to my friend that he not try to tow the 25 back from Florida with an exact duplicate of my truck, but he was going to do it anyway.  Time constraints got in the way.  

The 25 was towed round-trip from Lansing to Detroit (flat-land all the way) with the 1500, and once up to speed it was fine. Stop & go traffic proved to be a strain on the small-block V8.  If you're going to tow occasionally, the small block would be fine, but if you're going to be towing a lot or in the mountains, the big-block would be better.  

BUT, I think with the big-block and the 25, you would be over the GVWR (don't know about the Ford).  The Chevy 1500 5.7L with my rear-end is rated to tow 6,400 lbs.  Subtract fuel, passengers, bed-topper & toys in the truck, 5,800 is more realistic.  BUT, boats tow much better than trailers, so exceeding the GVWR by a very little might not be so bad.  The problems with exceeding the GVWR start once you're in an accident.  If someone is hurt or killed, you can count on a lawsuit IF YOU'RE WAY OVER.  

So, can you tow a 25 with a 1500, yes.  I would not want to do it, but I am by nature very conservative, and face it, it's just no fun to drive whilst straining the truck.

[Windhawk]

I've got a Chevy 1500, a half-ton equal to the F-150, with the 5.7 litre V8 (290 HP, 330 ft. lbs. torque), it handled the 23 quite well.  Com-Pac has the same truck as mine, but with the big-block engine in it, and they said no problem bringing the 25 to Michigan.  I reccomended to my friend that he not try to tow the 25 back from Florida with an exact duplicate of my truck, but he was going to do it anyway.  Time constraints got in the way.  

The 25 was towed round-trip from Lansing to Detroit (flat-land all the way) with the 1500, and once up to speed it was fine. Stop & go traffic proved to be a strain on the small-block V8.  If you're going to tow occasionally, the small block would be fine, but if you're going to be towing a lot or in the mountains, the big-block would be better.  

BUT, I think with the big-block and the 25, you would be over the GVWR (don't know about the Ford).  The Chevy 1500 5.7L with my rear-end is rated to tow 6,400 lbs.  Subtract fuel, passengers, bed-topper & toys in the truck, 5,800 is more realistic.  BUT, boats tow much better than trailers, so exceeding the GVWR by a very little might not be so bad.  The problems with exceeding the GVWR start once you're in an accident.  If someone is hurt or killed, you can count on a lawsuit IF YOU'RE WAY OVER.  

So, can you tow a 25 with a 1500, yes.  I would not want to do it, but I am by nature very conservative, and face it, it's just no fun to drive whilst straining the truck.

[pbrenton]

For a counter example, I was somewhat nervous towing my '23 behind a Jeep Cherokee (2001 version) with a V6.  

The towing rating for that car (and I use the word meaningfully) is 3500, and the CP23 and trailer (note; motor in the car of course) were about 3,000 together IIRC.  

Now, I'm a nervous tower, and there are no working surge brakes on this trailer, but I really thought that I was not especially in charge of the operation.  I'm glad I only had to pull it about a mile.   My Bro-in-law's Ram brought it the longer trip without incident.  I would expect that, if no worse events happened, the Jeep's cooling system might give up after just a few highway miles.  I would hate seeing a need to stop quickly from even 35 or so.

Pete

[bob lamb]

Curtis
 Wonder if you could expand on your comments about the use of Genoa for light wind only. And the uselessness of it in heavy wind?  Seems to me it should be the other way around???
 I have only a Genoa on my boat and it's on the CDI furler.  Is reducing the sail via furler equal to havinlg a jib?

Bob
CP23D

[curtis]

Curtis
 Wonder if you could expand on your comments about the use of Genoa for light wind only. And the uselessness of it in heavy wind?  Seems to me it should be the other way around???
 I have only a Genoa on my boat and it's on the CDI furler.  Is reducing the sail via furler equal to havinlg a jib?

Bob
CP23D

Bob,

The CDI seems to be best for people who sail mostly in 15 knots or less and don't sail in over 20 knots.  A big genoa (135 or more) starts to get reefed at 15 knots or less.  The sail shape isn't much good with more than a 20-30% sail reduction so its best to furl a big genoa or leave just a tiny bit of sail out by the time winds hit 20 knots.  Any more than that and you'll need to change sails.

I was finding that if you reefed late the foil in the CDI was twisting top to bottom.  It is also harder to change sails with the CDI than traditional external halyard furlers.

Details are on my boat web pages at Boat and Equipment Experiences - Roller Furler

Those web pages need a little updating but I'm a lot happier with the ProFurl than with the CDI.

To answer your other question, a genoa on a roller furler is equivalent to a very poorly cut or blown out jib when reefed that far.  If the wind is 20-25 knots I would not want to be sailing with a 135-150% genoa reefed down to an appropriate size for that wind speed.  The sail tends to be baggy when reefed and you'd want a well flattenned jib at 25 knots with at least the first reef in the mainsail.

You can sail with too much canvas and its exciting with the rail in the water and dumping the mainsheet on any gusts.  You actually sail slower heeled over that far than you'd sail with less sail area and if you're out for an all day passage rather than just a daysail hanging on like that gets old real fast.  I'm suggesting wind speeds assuming you'd like to sail comfortably and efficiently.  As I said earlier if you do push it, then the CDI foil twists when you do get around to reefing.

Curtis

[curtis]

Curtis
 Wonder if you could expand on your comments about the use of Genoa for light wind only. And the uselessness of it in heavy wind?  Seems to me it should be the other way around???
 I have only a Genoa on my boat and it's on the CDI furler.  Is reducing the sail via furler equal to havinlg a jib?

Bob
CP23D

Bob,

The CDI seems to be best for people who sail mostly in 15 knots or less and don't sail in over 20 knots.  A big genoa (135 or more) starts to get reefed at 15 knots or less.  The sail shape isn't much good with more than a 20-30% sail reduction so its best to furl a big genoa or leave just a tiny bit of sail out by the time winds hit 20 knots.  Any more than that and you'll need to change sails.

I was finding that if you reefed late the foil in the CDI was twisting top to bottom.  It is also harder to change sails with the CDI than traditional external halyard furlers.

Details are on my boat web pages at Boat and Equipment Experiences - Roller Furler

Those web pages need a little updating but I'm a lot happier with the ProFurl than with the CDI.

To answer your other question, a genoa on a roller furler is equivalent to a very poorly cut or blown out jib when reefed that far.  If the wind is 20-25 knots I would not want to be sailing with a 135-150% genoa reefed down to an appropriate size for that wind speed.  The sail tends to be baggy when reefed and you'd want a well flattenned jib at 25 knots with at least the first reef in the mainsail.

You can sail with too much canvas and its exciting with the rail in the water and dumping the mainsheet on any gusts.  You actually sail slower heeled over that far than you'd sail with less sail area and if you're out for an all day passage rather than just a daysail hanging on like that gets old real fast.  I'm suggesting wind speeds assuming you'd like to sail comfortably and efficiently.  As I said earlier if you do push it, then the CDI foil twists when you do get around to reefing.

Curtis