BLIND BOLTS HOLDING RUDDER TO TRANSOM

[CADMAN]

I think I may have the only CP16 RAVEN in the uk. I bought it off Ebay and am busy getting to grips with lots of maintenance problems with the boat and the Trailer. The first problem that I cant see a solution to is how do you remove the aluminum frame to which the rudder is mounted. It seems to be bolted to the grp transom with blind bolts; they just turn and turn without loosening. There is no access to the back of the transom so does anybody have any experiance with this. The reason I want to remove the frame is to clean up the gel coat and carry out a really neat paint job on the frame.

[Salty19]

Welcome to the forum!  You are right...there are likely very few if any other CP16's in the UK.  The good news is you have a unique boat.  Don't fret, most of them need some TLC.  But everything is doable.

In your case, there is actually access to the transom but it's a tight squeeze.  Essentially you need to worm your way back--head first--into the transom area from a bunk.
Then REACH to the nuts. What is happening is the nuts on the backside are gripping/frozen thus the entire bolt and nut spins.  Get a helper to hold the nuts from the inside, then unfasten the bolts. They will probably be tough to remove.  Some thread loosening compound will help (such as PB Blaster or Liquid Wrench). 

I has a similar problem with one bolt on the motor mount.  It simply would not come loose.  In that case they were carriage bolts so I would not muscle it out of there.  Ended up cutting the little devil off with a cut-off wheel.

A small fan to provide some air to the unlucky person who gets to hold the nuts will help make it bearable.  Yes, it's very tight and not easy to do.

Good luck.  They are worth the effort.  While you're playing with the rudder, consider converting it to a foil.  It can be done yourself for less than $50 US. What is that, like $1.50 in UK quid?

[skip1930]

Blind bolts. OK I assume, as it is said--> [ "an a** out of you and me" equals the word 'assume' ]

The the aluminum rudder casting looks to be in the same family as every other Com-Pac model.

Assume that the casting was mounted and bolted [ 1/4-20 bolts ] with the deck NOT YET ATTACHED to the hull from the factory.
When I took my rudder casting off my CP-19 each bolt had a flat washer and a Nylock nut threaded on to the bolt. Nuts on the inside of transom.

With much effort I skinnied my fat butt under the deck on my back and reached out to each nut on the transom and snap clamped a small vice grip TO EACH NUT and carefully pushed the vice grip against the transom. Then from outside the transom I slowly and carefully turned each bolt with a 3/8 socket, allowing the Nylok nut to turn the vice grip until the vice grip ran into something and stopped turning, allowing the nut to be backed off the bolt until I heard each Nyloc nut, washer and vice grip assembly fall off each bolt and land in the bottom of the boat.

I pulled out each bolt. BUT--> The rudder casting was also 'glued in' with a dab of 3-M 5200 around each bolt and to get this loose I needed to take my paint stripping heat gun and raise the temperature around that dab of caulk to about 160 deg F. [ almost able to touch and hold the metal ] and then proceed to beat the aluminum casting off with a rubber mallet. That took 20 minutes of beating.

After powder coating the rudder casting and re-bushing, reassembly was to thread the bolts back into the holes in the transom with a new dab of 3-M 5200 slow set and crawl back to the transom and have the wife tighten each 1/4-20 from the outside while I again reached out to hold the flat washer and Nylok nut back onto the threads of the bolts while the wife provided the twist to start the nuts and to finish the job.

It's a lot easier then it sounds. The other way is to sacrifice each bolt by grinding off the head and drift pin out the bolt into the bottom of the boat and heat and beat the casting off and replacing the bolts, washer and nuts.

It was so difficult to get the casting off I'll bet the bolts weren't necessary to hold the rudder casting to the transom. Just kidding

skip.

[Bob23]

I cheated: I cut a round access hole on the inside of the transom and installed an access plate. Good thing...looks like I have to remove the rudder gudgeon again...premature salt water corrosion has caused a lot of play in the lower bolt...hmm...maybe I have to drill this out and replace it with nylon washers.
Bob23

[doug]

My 16 cb came with access plates (approx 6-7" screw on)  that you can simply screw off and then reach. With the center board trunk, I don't think I could get my body far enough back to get to the transom (could be i need to go on a diet). The access plates have come in handy for other purposes so I'd really think seriously about putting some in. I'd send a photo, only I can't get to the craft

[skip1930]

Drill out the rudder and casting holes for 1/2" dia and go to ACE for four~bronze [ oil impregnated ] shoulder bushings, placed back to back [ shoulder to shoulder ] to create a ware surface. I think they are 1/2" dia outside x 7/8" long with a 3/8" dia inside.

Run a 3/8" dia ss bolt through them and use a nyloc nut with copious amounts of ss flat washers and Permatex Neveseave. I put my nuts up so I could watch them if they wanted to fall off. I see threads sticking out, I KNOW everything is OK.

skip.[/color]

[Bob23]

I'll' be doing this but using nylon bushings. Less chance of electrolysis than with bronze. I do have a few zincs down there to slow the corrosion down.

Bob23

[Shawn]

Bob,

See if you can get Delrin bushings made. Strong and should last a very long time. I had a pair put in my replacement gudgeon that I put on a couple of seasons ago. My old gudgeon was fairly corroded and the brass bushings in it had welded themselves to the strainless rod.

Shawn

[Bob23]

Thanks, Shawn....I'll look around. I just want to do this once.  I used nylon bushings from Lowe's for my Oarmaster 1 sliding seat rig on my Alden Ocean Shell and on the aluminum tiller straps on my 23. That should eliminate the wear between the aluminum and ss bolts.
Bob23

[CADMAN]

Thanks for some very helpfull and interesting suggestions re access to the blind bolts on the inside of the Transome. I plan to wait until my slim son comes round and then try to persuade him to crawl up the inside armed with a Mole Wrench ( I think you call them something else, even though they were invented in the USA during World War 2 by the Mole Company). Failing that, I like the idea of an access hatch big enough to get a hand in with a socket Spanner. The Hatch would need to be sealed with a gasket and I would welcome any suggestions for methods of fixing this to the transom.

[Shawn]

"The Hatch would need to be sealed with a gasket and I would welcome any suggestions for methods of fixing this to the transom."

Put it inside the cockpit. Any 6" inspection port should give you plenty of room to do this.

I'm 6'5" and when I swapped out my gudgeons on my 23 it was painful. You can't climb though the quarterberths to get to the bolts as there is a bulkhead at the foot of the quarterberths. Without the inspection port you have to basically fold yourself in half going in through the cockpit lockers. If I have to get back there again I'm definitely adding an inspection port.

Shawn

[Shawn]

Bob,

You could check Ida sailer and see if they will sell you the Delrin bushings. That is who did mine. Any local tool/die machine shop could make you a pair though. If they have it use the graphite impregnated delrin and leave it with a head to act as an insulator between the stainless bolt head and the aluminum gudgeon. If they do two piece you could have a head on each side for total galvanic isolation.

Shawn

[doug]

The hatch on my cp d16cb looks like this: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|48504&id=49161 -- I'm not certain of the size. I would think you could check Hutchins parts list for size (or for that matter, possibly order them from Hutchins if the shipping wouldn't kill the pricing). If you interested, at a minimum, I'm certain Hutchins would provide the size and mounting location.

If you go to http://www.com-pacyachts.com/trailerable-sloops/legacy-photogallery.html and look closely at the transom photo, under the tiller you can see where Hutchins installs them.

[skip1930]

" I'll' be doing this but using nylon bushings. Less chance of electrolysis than with bronze. "

I think that you will find that nylon bushing have been already pressed into the casting assembly.
Well I found that out when I started to drill baby drill my casting. And upon careful inspection, yes these nylon bushing were oval and allowed slop.

Does bronze react to salt? I thought that's why bronze is used on salt water boats.

skip.

[Shawn]

Skip,

It isn't just the bronze and salt that is the problem. The problem is when you have dissimilar metals in electrical contact with each other in the presence of salt water that can cause problems. It can setup an electrical current between the metals and that results in electrolysis which can corrode and pit the metals. My bushings had been replaced in by the prior owner with bronze. There was a huge amount of friction trying to pivot the rudder due to corrosion between the bronze and stainless. It was so bad I wasn't able to remove the stainless rod from the bushings to get the old rudderhead off the boat. Not even with repeated blows from a hammer. I ended up pulling the rudder/rudder head and gudgeon off as one ( I was replacing the gudgeon anyway).

The factory setup puts a big piece of aluminum in salt water and has it electrically connected to stainless bolts. When you add in bronze bushings it is just one more point for corrosion due to electrolysis.

That is why the Delrin bushings are so nice. Delrin is a type of very strong plastic, some say stronger then steel. It won't wear like the nylon bushing you had. Delrin can be graphite impregnated (a permanently lubricated bearing surface) and because it is a plastic it doesn't conduct electricity. So it electrically isolates dissimilar metals which then avoids electrolysis.

This is sort of a hidden advantage of the ida sailer rudders. Instead of a big conductor of electricity being dunked in salt water you are putting a big insulator into salt water. Bob's foiled rudder should also help to insulate the aluminum plate from salt water.

Shawn