Suncat long pin

[oddduck]

My first sail with the boomkicker I recently installed was last weekend in light air.  I love the thing so far.  I can't see any use for the long pin any more nor can I see any use for the topping lift I had installed.  After raising the mast I lift the boom and insert the stop pin in the boomkicker track.  From the cockpit I tension the downhaul which lifts the aft end of the boom off the gallows.  When raising the sail, there is no bang/clunk/thunk between the boom and gallows even if off the wind.  Lowering the sail is simply the reverse.  The boomkicker holds the boom above the hinge.  

Dennis

[Tim22]

I did some more poking around this weekend. We had one day of light winds and a second day of moderate winds with gusts to about 22Knts. This was perfect for studying the "Long Pin Dilemma"! What I learned was:

1. I don't like going to the mast to pull or replace the pin when it's blowing. For that matter I don't like it even when it isn't.
2. Reefing without some sort of topping lift is a pain. I have installed single line reefing which works well but having the boom banging around in the gallows is a bit unnerving
3. Lowering the sail in moderate winds is problematic with the gaff swinging about and sticking at some points
4. Sail shape matters. Being able to flatten the sail or unflatten using outhauls, leech lines, down hauls, or halyards makes a significant difference to performance

So here's my plan...

1 To solve the "long pin dilemma" and partially address the sail shape issue I am considering raising the top throat halyard block further up the mast. This will allow the pin to remain in place and the luff to be tensioned using the throat halyard. To test my theory I am planning to add a block to the lower mast bail. I am a bit concerned that this might over stress the bail so would be grateful of any thoughts on this. If the test is successful I will move the existing throat halyard block further up the mast.

2. To address the sail lowering (3) I will add lazy jacks with a single line on each side. These will be individually adjustable on the boom and will also be jointly adjustable using the re rigged down haul hardware with the addition of two cheek blocks near the top of the mast. The boom adjustment will be used to adjust sail trim while the joint adjustment can be used to quickly tension for use as lazy jacks.

3. I will add a gaff down haul rigged to starboard so it will be easily accessible when lowering the sail

Thanks for listening - any comments on the viability, sensibility or usability or anything else would be most appreciated. I am planning on doing this next weekend so still have time for sober second thought!

Tim

[kenf1111]

Hi Tim,
When you try these "fixes", can you try to post some pictures..
Thanks in advance
ken

[capt_nemo]

Tim22,

Wholeheartedly agree on lesson learned number 4 - Sail shape matters indeed. That is why I DON'T SAIL WITH THE LONG PIN IN! Don't understand why anyone would want to sail with it in and no downhaul! What SIGNIFICANT advantage is there to sailing with pin in?

Adding block to lower mast bail for test of theory is both practical and sound. If mast bail is fastened with bolt through mast don't worry about overstressing it.

Adding gaff downhaul, led to cockpit starboard, was first mod I made to my Sun Cat - the only thing that tames a pesky hesitant gaff, no matter how slick the sail track.

Added 3/16"  Dacron Topping Lift from boom end up thru small block on upper mast bail down to turning block at base of mast and to cockpit portside. Love it!

Think long and hard about when and how long you would need/use Lazy Jacks while sailing before adding any extra lines or hardware to mast or boom. There are simple, effective, low cost DIY Lazy Jack systems with absolutely NO HARDWARE! I've been using mine for two seasons and love 'em.

And for all those lines led aft to the cockpit port or starboard, removable and changeable line control boards as shown below.

[Tim22]

Capt_Nemo,

My main objection to the long pin is that I want out in when I'm sailing and in when I'm raising, lowering, or reefing the sail which means a trip to the mast each time. When single handing this is something I would prefer to avoid and leaving the pin in seems the best way to accomplish this. My problem is that I don't want to sacrifice sail shape as a result of leaving the pin in - hence the plan to raise the throat halyard block.

My lazy Jacks/topping lift pan is a variation of what I believe is Tom Ray's system. There are two lines (one each side of the boom) coming from the mast head to the boom (at the aft sailcover cutout locaton). The lines will go through  cheak blocks on either side of the boom and fasten in a jam cleat on the boom. By tightening both lines these will hold the boom above the gallows and act as lazy jacks. By tightening one line it will act as a topping lift allowing the sail to be shaped on one tack. Loosening one side and tightening the other will provide sail shape on the other tack. Where I differ from Tom's system is that at the masthead I intend to join both lines together into single line which will run through the downhaul block at the foot of the mast, downhaul deck block, to the downhaul clutch. This will allow both jacklines to be raised or lowered together when necessary.

I am impressed with your contol board. This may become my next project as my aversion to drilling holes in the deck is second only to my aversion to dealing with the long pin!!
Tim22

[capt_nemo]

Tim22,

Thanks for the info.

Reason I don't understand all the fuss is because I don't even think about the long pin (bungeed to mast below hinge) when I'm raising, lowering or reefing sail. If you are experiencing a problem performing these tasks with long pin OUT then something else is not rigged or working correctly. And, I single hand most of the time and do not leave the cockpit.

capt_nemo

[Joseph]

On this, as on many other issues, I'll have to side with captn_nemo. The "long pin" is an absoloute gem and a designer stroke of genius but for only one purpose: being able to hold all the lines tucked against the mast when the mast is down. Most particularly, it makes for both portions of the gaff halyard (even the aft portion leading to the middle of the gaff) to "disappear" against the mast. It has no designed role for shaping the sail. In fact, as captn_nemo has insisted, if used while sailing it interferes with the downhaul, a much needed adjustment to shape a sail with a floating tack. If you need the pin to keep the boom from touching the gallows then either the main halyard is not up all the way or the mainsail (or at least its leech) has stretched and it's time for a new sail.

J.

[Tom Ray]

Frankly, I just don't understand why there is such a burning desire to leave that darn long pin in place while sailing.

I put it in immediately upon launch so I can have the Bimini up for the wife and dogs. I leave it in while sailing because the mast is alllllll the way up there and I'm alllllll the way back here in the cockpit and can't be bothered.

Sincerely,

Jib Trimmer

[Tim22]

Joseph & Capt_Nemo

My question is a theoretical one. Presuming that the same tension can be achieved using either method, is there an advantage to adjusting luff tension using a floating gooseneck with a halyard & downhaul as opposed to a fixed gooseneck and halyard alone.  This would seem to be the crux of the issue and I have been working under the presumption that tension is tension whether applied from one end of the sail or both ends.

How say you?

Tim 22

[capt_nemo]

Tim22,

It was indeed gratifying, at long last, to read Joseph's "kindred spirit" comments supporting my understanding of the purpose and use of the controversial long pin.

If, in fact, your "presumption" is correct, I see no particular advantage to adjusting luff tension using a floating gooseneck with halyard and downhaul as opposed to fixed gooseneck and halyard. With floating gooseneck we raise and "fix" the throat (head) then tension the luff at the tack with the 2 part downhaul, and with fixed gooseneck you have "fixed" the tack and tension the luff with the 2 part halyard. Tensioning lines in both cases are led back to the cockpit through turning blocks to clutches or cleats on the cabintop.

The problem I have with making the alteration in running rigging that you propose is a matter of principle. I have learned through experience, sometimes the hard way, over the course of many years that, IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!

However, if you have a strong compelling reason to alter the running rigging, then I say go for it and let us all know how it works out!

capt_nemo

[Tom Ray]

Joseph & Capt_Nemo

My question is a theoretical one. Presuming that the same tension can be achieved using either method, is there an advantage to adjusting luff tension using a floating gooseneck with a halyard & downhaul as opposed to a fixed gooseneck and halyard alone.  This would seem to be the crux of the issue and I have been working under the presumption that tension is tension whether applied from one end of the sail or both ends.

How say you?

Tim 22

Don is right that there is no significant difference in terms of the sail shape.

Two differences that occur to me:

If you relocate the throat halyard a bit higher, you'll have to put more holes in your mast, and they will be pretty near to existing holes.

The whole rig will be a bit higher up in the air, which is good in light air, not so good in heavy air. How much higher depends on how close you are willing to drill a new set of holes to the old ones.

The natural position of the boom is near where the long pin holds it, but it wants to be a bit further down in most conditions. Not enough further to make me bother removing my long pin, though...

[Tim22]

This weekend I made several changes to My Sun Cat.

First, I temporarily replaced the throat halyard block with a block attached to the lower mast bail. This was a test to see if a higher location would allow the sail to be properly tensioned while sailing with the long pin left in. The results were a bit mixed. I could get slightly more tension but not as much as I could get using the down haul with the pin out. The problem seems to be the friction in the sail track as I just didn't have enough strength to get the same tension as I could achieve with the down haul. Were this test a success I intended to move the throat halyard fitting higher on the mast, but I am not sure that the results justify this change.

The second change was to add lazy jacks/topping lift as per Tom Ray's design but modified to be adjustable from the cockpit port side as well as on the boom. This was detailed in my previous post. These worked exceptionally well. I have yet to fully evaluate the usefulness of the dual control to the cockpit and will do some more testing before deciding whether to keep this aspect of the mod, but the lazy jacks/topping lift is definitely a keeper.

The third modification was the addition of a gaff downhaul.  I added a block at the base of the mast and ran the line through the port side of the starboard deck organizer. Don't know how I lived without this!!

Fourth mod was to add single line jiffy reefing.

Tim22

[Joseph]

Yes, tension is tension... but given the friction in the rigging an the elasticity of ropes, you may want to apply it as directly and as close as possible to the zone that needs to be stretched. A downhaul in addition of being helped by the effect of gravity in the entire luff, is shorter and has less sheaves an blocks than a halyard.  Stretching the luff of a full sail using the halyard can be very difficult without luffing the sail and stalling the boat, but this may still be possible with a downhaul. This is also the reason why when Bermuda racing sloops started to be produced with fixed goose necks (and hence without a downhaul) Briggs Cunningham invented, well yes, "the cunningham".

Coming back to the main reason for the long pin (which I strongly suspect to be a Hutchins invention), in addition of keeping all lines against the mast it ensures that the neck of the gaff has been brought below the level of the mast hinge when the mast is about to be folded down. As such it a safety reminder, as it is not possible to put the pin in place unless the gaff's neck and its halyard's shackle have already been pushed down below the level of the hinge.

In my boat the head of the pin has an opening just large enough to catch on the upper edge of the casing of the hinge, inside which it hangs loose while sailing.

J.

[Tom Ray]

The long pin is a Hutchins invention. I don't know of anything else quite like it. The long pin in back and safety pin in front are really what distinguish a Mastendr hinge from just a plain old hinge, as far as I can tell. I have not read their patent.

The boat needs it mostly to hold up the throat end of the main boom, keeping it off the deck so you can open the forward hatch and have the bimini top up when not under sail. Keeping the gaff boom fitting out of the hinge is the other purpose for it.

As for using it under sail, what they really need to do is just cut the mast section a little bit lower when installing the hinge. There would still be plenty of room to get everything below the hinge for mast folding, but the pinned position of the boom would be a bit too low instead of a bit too high, assuming nothing else was changed. That would mean the throat halyard could be used to set luff tension, and the downhaul dispensed with.

If I ever break my mast, I'll order a new one uncut and a hinge and put it in the "right" place myself.

[capt_nemo]

I use my throat halyard, downhaul, and long pin just the way they are, the way they were designed and meant to be used, without any problems, and love 'em!

capt_nemo