Waves and Mud

[Whitewater]

Hello!

After 20 years of owning sailboats with centerboards, I think I want a Com-Pac, either a 19 or a 23.

I sail in an area that I will "affectionately" call the Middle River Wave Pool (in MD). Most sailors motor through the rough stuff and put their sails up when they get out to the Chesapeake Bay. The river does get calm during football season when the Ravens are playing though...  So anyway, I am thinking the larger C-23 will be more comfortable in that chop than the C-19. Is there much of a difference between the two when it comes to dealing with the rough stuff?

My second topic is mud. I'm thinking of keeping a Com-Pac in a shallow slip that goes down to 1'9". The C-19 should be OK, but I'm wondering how a C-23 will do if it sometimes rests in soft mud at low tide? Do any of you guys do that? Another guy at our Marina has an Oday 23 in one of those slips (same draft as C-23), so I'm thinking with a kick-up rudder I'll be able to keep a C-23 in there. For now I'll be keeping my Oday close-by so I don't miss any good sailing....

Thanks

Cheers>

[newt]

WWater, the 23 and 19 are different boats with different designers. I personally like the 23 in rough stuff, and I think the 19 has a faster bottom. The 23 has a robust keel and would be able to take the mud without a problem. I would get a sail on each one before I would make up my mind. And keep a eye out for the differences. They are there.

[Salty19]

Newt is right, the two boats have different hull designs entirely and therefore sail differently.

I've never been sailing on a 23 so I am of little help there.  Reports indicate the CP19 does pound in choppy waves more than the other compacs.  I've only experienced that once on my 19 when the wind was blowing like stink with appx 2' short frequency waves.  The old 16 would pound too but in a softer manner (if that makes sense) and generally at an angle to, not head on to, waves.

The 19 heels much less than the other compacs if that's important to you. But the 23's accomodations and cockpit space are far superior as is the ability to add more equipment and crew.

Towing the two has to be a lot different, the weight difference is about 1500lbs + increased trailer weight on a 23.   I frankly would not want to tow a 23 real far unless I had a big truck to do it with for fear of ruining the transmission and drivetrain.  Obviously if you don't plan on towing it much that may not matter much, but the CP19 needs at least a V6 pickup to tow, the CP23 needs a V8 and sturdier chassis for safe towing.

The draft issue could be a problem.  How would you get the boat out at low tide if the keel is touching bottom?  Also the bottom may not be as smooth as you think (ie clam beds) which would grind the keel and eventually cause some damage. Not saying that will happen but something to consider.
But hey at least you don't have to deal with leaky, problematic centerboards!
Indeed this is a tough decision.    BTW the draft on a CP19 is 2', the draft on a CP23 is 2'3".

So both are going to ground at low tide.

By the way, welcome to forum...compacs are GREAT boats.

[brackish]

the CP23 needs a V8 and sturdier chassis for safe towing.

Salty, you're going to give my V6 Tacoma Prerunner with 6500 lbs. tow capacity an inferiority complex.  It thinks it does just fine.

23 should do better in the chop, more rounded hull form makes it a little more tender in gusts.  19 is flatter has a higher initial stability but maybe a little more susceptible to bounce in chop.  But they are both sturdy displacement boats and can take a lot.

The boats can sit on their keels, certainly do on the trailer, however, Salty makes a good point about what might be under there and if there is any wave action that might be a wear problem.

good luck with your decision process.

[Salty19]

lol...you are braver than I am, Brack.   My 4runner V8 (8,000 tow capacity) does fine with the 19 but I sure wouldn't want to tow anything heavier.  Over long distances that is. 

[Whitewater]

I won't be trailoring this next boat, maybe just in and out for the season, if I find one with a trailor.

With waves, I try to take them at a 45 degree angle, but that is not always possible, and often the bow goes up and the boat then comes crashing down!

Anyway, the next size slip up (deeper) would take an 26' boat with a 8'9" beam and a 3'3" inch draft. Is there a Compac that would fit there? Those bigger Com-Pacs get expensive!

I'd probably go with the C-23, but a good one, at a good price, might be hard to find. After reading some threads on here about hairline cracks around C-23's keels, I'm wary of buying a C-23 which is on the hard for that reason. Maybe it's better to wait until it's warm and I can sail one?



Thanks for your comments.

[newt]

I think you would do well with either boat. Don't worry about keels on the 23. I have looked at lots of keels, and the ONLY 23 I have seen with a troubled keel was the one just mentioned on a thread. Newer is better (read less problems) in my experience, but lots of people here have older Compacs that look new. Just look at Bob-23's

[Whitewater]

If I look at a C-23, I will check carefully for any damage to the keel.

I did spend some time on this forum before I posted this stuff, and I read that the cement keel on the C-23 is hollow in the back? Guys ice their beer in the hole in the bilge...cool! So the keel of the C-19 is not hollow? ,,,no room in the bilge for beer? hehehe
Both of those boats should will be OK sitting in the mud at low tide too, and I will talk to the marina owner about whether there's rocks in there.

Thanks again.....the search is about to begin...

[Bob23]

   I have a fundamental belief that the boat should not rest on the bottom. Just seems a bit wierd, that's all. My 23 actually draws closer to 2'6" and add another 10" for the rudder.
   Capt Murphy has decreed that you will want to sail in or out of that too shallow slip sometime and may curse the day you put your beloved 23 there. Well, your soon-to-be beloved 23! Once you start looking for a 23, she will find you and then you'll be hooked!
   Mine is a 1985 and in great shape but she's been well cared for. No keel damage whatsoever.
   My 245 hp tundra hardly knows it's back there. Now if I can keep the chassis from rusting away!
Bob23

[Salty19]

hehe...there's room for a 12 pack and a bag of ice in a 19 bilge but that's about it.  And with less heel the 19 will spill fewer beers!

Seriously the draft issue is...well, an issue me thinks.  Better to use bottles as draft beer will give you a headache. And they can do double duty as a mud rollers at low tide under that 23. 

Bob, sure the 4runner and Tundras with the 4.7liter V8 (and other similar vehicles) can tow a 23 across town no problem, and probably a whole lot more.  It's slowing or stopping the rig quickly when forced to do so by another driver that is the problem.    I sure would not want to pull off a rush hour, soccer mom avoiding, slam on your brakes event with much weight in tow.  That's an everyday occurance around here!

[Whitewater]

I'll have another sailboat to use at low tide.
Except for possible abrasion on the bottom, it probably won't do any major damage then, but it will be a sad sight to see a beautiful Com-Pac stuck in th mud.
There's probably some European boats that were designed to be kept that way.
Cheers>

[brackish]

It's slowing or stopping the rig quickly when forced to do so by another driver that is the problem.

That's a fact.  However, my trailer has brakes which I keep maintained and don't leave home without them.  I've made several long trips towing with my Tacoma, one of about 200 miles, another of about 1000 miles round trip.  The truck does fine, but I would not do it without trailer brakes with any of the vehicles we've been discussing. 

Would I prefer more power?  Sure.  However, the truck is a daily driver and I put about 9000 miles per year non-towing, and about a thousand towing.  So I can have that 21 MPG average for the non towing miles rather than the 16-17 you get with most half ton, V8 PU's.

I have toyed with the idea of buying a well used diesel work truck, say GM 2500 or Its Ford or Dodge counterpart and just use it for towing and hauling wood for my woodworking addiction.   Then buy a smaller, fuel efficient, and potentially more fun vehicle for daily driving.  Or maybe that Harley.....wonder if I could get that one past the Admiral.

[Salty19]

Hi Brack...yes I have to beleive trailer brakes makes a huge difference.

[Billy]

reading thi post I have to put in my 2 cents. I have been reluctant to post these photos b/c I am ashamed that i would ever let it come to this. But there has been a time (or two) that I have been caught in a low tide. Needless to say, the 19 is SOLID!!!





It stayed balanced like that all night, the bottom was VERY soft! when the tide came back and I left there was a brown trail that followed me back to the ramp, from all the mud that was caked onto the keel.

p.s. mine is a 1983 CP19-1 Hull # 35 and she looks better today than she has in 10 years!

[ssullivan]

awesome pics bro