Pre-purchase keel repair opinion needed

[geopilot]

Hi-
Just joined up- hoping to purchase a CP23. I looked at an '84 model yesterday- it has a repair to the side of the keel that concerns me. The patch pre-dates the current owner so they are no help. The aft end of the keel where this patch is sounded hollow when I tapped on it. There is a rectangular plate screwed onto the keel. Not sure if it is metal or thin fiberglass. The patch has 2 holes? that have been filled with 4200 or other caulk- those are the 2 raised bumps in the center. If this ever leaked is the keel connected to the bilge? Photos below.

Thanks for any advice here.
**NOTE** Additional info has been provided about this plate- see page 2 of thread- it is apparently a ground plate for lightning, NOT a repair.

[edbuchanan]

Hi Dave,

The aft part of the keel contains the sump, or the deepest part of the bilge.  That's why it sounded hollow there.  Yes, she would sink like a rock if the patch failed badly.

It is hard to tell from the photo, but the patch may be entirely in the sump.  The good part of that is that you can gain access to the sump by climbing in under the companionway stair, and with a flash light you should easily be able to see the extent of the damage, unless it continues beyond the concrete/lead casting just forward of the sump.  My boat is also a 1984/II; a very good boat.

Ernie (Molly, 1984/II)

[geopilot]

Thanks Ernie, that's interesting. I did look and there was ice in the bilge within a few inches of the top. I was not sure how deep it went or if there was glass separating the bilge from the keel. I guess that water could be over a foot deep if it goes all the way down. I saw no evidence of deck or scupper leaks, so the wet bilge was also a red flag.
Dave

[Allure2sail]

I think I would just move on to another boat, that patch panel looks like potential problem in the future. Sounds like the keel pocket on a 23 where they pour the ballast into is not sealed off. If the bilge box is not sealed off from the keel cavity and you clip a rock and break thru the encapsulation the keel with fill up with water (if not already) and flood the bilge and then the galley. I don't have to tell you what happens next!!! That's why on my I put in the largest bilge pump I could fit in there and stay out of shallow or as they say "skinny" water. Best of luck, very valid question and a good thing to post. Keep looking !!!!!

[brackish]

Thanks Ernie, that's interesting. I did look and there was ice in the bilge within a few inches of the top. I was not sure how deep it went or if there was glass separating the bilge from the keel. I guess that water could be over a foot deep if it goes all the way down. I saw no evidence of deck or scupper leaks, so the wet bilge was also a red flag.
Dave

Dave it's pretty deep.  I'd estimate 15" below the top of the ballasted part of the keel.  You'd really need to pump it dry and see what you've got from the inside.  Don't know why anyone would have patched it in that manner unless it was for expediency sake and they never got back to it.

As a point of reference, I've never had any water in that sump and my boat stays in the water year round without a cover.  You really need to know where it is coming from.  Leak could be at the hull to deck seam and the water ends up in the bilge sump.  In fact, leak could be anywhere, all paths lead to that point.

[Bob23]

Dave:
   I'm gonna echo Brack. I have a 1985 and she's in the water from April till November. I get very little water in the sump. It appears to me that the patch spans the hollow area but also goes forward enough to be against the concrete keel. This might not be a deal breaker if  you're a bit handy with fiberglass and if the price is right- very right. My concern would be the integrity of the keel and if any water has intruded into the concrete. Why don't you tell the seller you want to remove the patch before you buy? With no responsibilities, of course.
   And I'll also agree with Allure: Put an electric bilge pump down there; yeah, a big one. If that hollow area gets punctured, down to Davey Jones Locker she goes! I did the same thing on my boat but I'm thinking of a way to reinforce that hollow area. Bronze foot under the keel? Anyone else have any other ideas?
   Welcome to the site, Dave. We look forward to hearing how this is gonna play out. Where are you located? Possibly one of the crew here, if nearby, and if bribed with enough beer, could check it out with you.
Bob23 in NJ and "Koinonia" 1985 23/2 #321

[Allure2sail]

Hi Bob & Dave:
I do have a bronze flange with a pipe thread plug in the center of it. It's located on the starboard stern side of the keel. I do not know if it is factory or from one of the two previous owners. I wish the drain flange was positioned lower, it's about two feet up the side of the keel, thus I can never really get all the water out in the fall. I leave the plug out over the winter months. I have never been able to pin point how the water is getting in there, perhaps rain runoff, pin hole or two in the keel itself, osmosis, your guess is as good as mine. I have to tell you when I take out the pipe plug to drain the keel in the fall it is by far the most horrible smelling bilge water I have smelt in my life time. It actually stinks out the surrounding area so bad I do it at the end off the day when everyone else has left and then I get heck out of there myself. It is just awful !!!
Best of luck....

[geopilot]

Thanks to all for the fast feedback since I had to let the owner know something today- she has another person interested in the boat. This boat is in Vermilion, Ohio and is listed on sailboatowners.com. I have decided to pass this one up- I am 5 hours away in Kentucky, and only had yesterday to look at the boat. The interior is in great shape, sails tired, Magic-tilt roller trailer needed a couple of tires and some maintenance before a 5-hour trip. Original Johnson 6hp 2-stroke. Of course the exterior teak needs work. I thought the boat and trailer were well-priced at $5500- may still be for someone closer who could spend more time investigating. The gelcoat on the hull was treated with something (poliglow or vertglas?), which has yellowed and is now peeling off in patches- some work needed to strip that mess off.
As for me, I sail a Catalina Capri 18 at Cave Run Lake in eastern Kentucky- looking to move up to something a little bigger- the CP23 sure caught my eye, so I'll keep looking.
Thanks again, Dave

[newt]

Geo- I got a 97, and the right 23 is worth the wait. They are great boats.

[rip]

Yikes! Concrete doesn't fill the entire length of the keel? This is very interesting information for a new 23 owner who assumed(yeah, I know a** of you and me) that it did. I think I may have a problem and before I call Hutchins maybe you guys can help. You may have seen the pictures I posted of my cradle. Well I attempted to fix the cradle and got it almost perfect, except for the fact that it is still not supporting the whole length of the keel. We were hauled and put on the cradle a couple of weeks ago. But the keel is only supported at it's ends. I think I need to prop up under the enter of the cradle and then slip some shims between the keel and the cradle. I also think I need to do this soon. Thanks! rip   

[Salty19]

Definitely a boat to pass on.  Ice to the top of the bilge would seem to indicate a decent size leak that doesn't drain.  That ice expanded and probably already cracked the glass.

[Bob23]

Dave:
   Yeah, for $5500, I'd pass too. The keel issues are one thing if there is no visable damage. A coating on the gel-coat can be a bugger to remove. I never knew Poliglow to yellow but, hey, I've been wrong before. Keep looking and waiting...you're boat will find you.
Rip:
   I wouldn't support the boat on the aft end of the keel..it's just hollow fiberglass. My boat rests flat on a 2x10 board which is attached to the frame of the trailer. So far, in 5 years, no problems. Remember, this is a 48000 ounce boat...she needs some support under her keel.
Allure:
   I'd be very concerned about that much water in your boat. As previously mentioned, everything drains to the sump, which is why the bilge pump is located there. If you are getting a lot of water in there, it could be coming from a pin hole in the sump area. I do not have any drain plug in my boat...sounds like an "improvement" from a previous owner although I've not personally inspected every Compac keel made. Maybe the leak is coming from the flange itself?
   I normally will have about 1 inch of water in there...probably coming from the deck pipe for the anchor line.
the cover blew off a few years ago and I've yet to replace it! This winter, I promise. 
Bob23

[Bob23]

I was thinking about this the other night- I wonder if the water's coming from the scuppers? Mine leaked a bit when I first got her. I'd like to put in larger ones and connect with flexible hose to take care of any "give" between cockpit floor and transom.
Bob23

[Salty19]

That's a great idea, Bob.

[peterg]

Leaks are a real pain in the butt. I had a Compac 19 that would get absolutely no water in her when sitting at the dock, regardless of any amount of rain or forceful application of the water hose. However, during  a short sail or even motoring, I'd get varying amounts of water in the port and starboard lockers under the vee berth cushions, as well as under the port berth (under the wood in that barely accessible, foamed in void). Long search short, the U-bolt on the bow was tight, but the sealant had deteriorated to the point where water was forced up the shanks of the bolt when under way. It did not help, either, that Compac used mild steel washers and nuts on the stainless U-bolt, and the wooden back-up block suffered from the water intrusion. I might mention that both C19s I've owned had mild steel hardware on the U-bolts. I mentioned this during a visit to the factory and I hope later models got the full stainless treatment. Replacing the bad parts and a bit of fresh sealant resulted in an extremely dry boat. Routing the sink drain through an above the water line bronze thru hull kept any waste water out of the bilge. Sorry............I just cannot stand water in my boats!!