Pre-purchase keel repair opinion needed

[Allure2sail]

Hi:
You definitely hit a nerve on that reply. I've had to replace a number of mild steel items on my boat as well. Will never understand how any boat manufacturer (not only ComPac) would ever use non stainless steel items in the construction of their boats. My pet peeve, I guess it goes along with being part of the engineering world.

[sailawayken]

Hi my name is Ken and I think I am the other offer on the boat.  Did you ever find out any additional info on keel issue.  Thanks for posting the info it has been a big help.

[geopilot]

Ken-
I have no other info other than what has been offered here- if you are interested in purchasing this boat the main questions would seem to be:
1) is the repair to the keel likely to cause future problems or trouble with resale?
2) where is the water that has filled the keel and bilge coming from?
3) Has the the freezing of the water in the keel done any damage?
Good luck and post back if you buy it-
Dave

[Allure2sail]

I think that on a 23 it sounds like the keel is not capped off by the bilge box or floor pan. On a 27 it appears to be sealed off by the floor pan and the bilge box, thus when the keel is not drained in the wintertime and the water in it is allowed to freezes the expansion direction of the ice is upward and against the floor of the bilge which then cracks like mine did. It is repairable, but it shouldn't happen in the first place. These are of course my opinions and or theories.....that won't even get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks or anywhere else for that matter. That patch just plain scares me, what do the screws thread into? You can not tap a thread into fiberglass and screw into it, I doubt you could get a nut into position on the inside to screw into and self tapping screws aren't any stronger, especially into fiberglass.
Bruce
S/V Allure

[John R.]

The boat the OP asked about is in a storage building nearby so I went to see what the story is on the "keel patch" you were all speculating about. It turns out most of the OP's information and assumptions were wrong, and despite good intentions, the collective suggestion to walk away apparently cost the owner a sale to the OP - and maybe others reading this thread. I suggest rather than speculating the next time, it would be better to recommend that a prospective buyer seek the opinion of someone in a position to actually obtain the facts before rendering an opinion.

The "patch" is apparently intended as a ground plate. It's a 12" x 19" sheet of about 14 ga. brass overcoated with what appears to be gelcoat which was then painted with antifouling with the rest of the bottom. It was very neatly shaped and installed and apparently well bonded to the side of the keel as there is no evidence of a separation line or voids at the interface. Also, the "hollow" sound made by tapping on it is almost exactly matched in tone by tapping on the other side of the keel that has no "patch".

The visible screw heads around the perimeter are #8 round head machine screws with washers and nuts on the inside which were fairly neatly "coated" in silicone - I assume to prevent the nuts turning. The two "bumps" in the middle of the plate are not 4200 or any other caulk. They are the heads of two 3/8" though-bolts, also nutted on the inside that connect to a ground strap which in turn connects to a ground bus mounted on the seat face just outboard of the sump where about 6 wires terminate. There is no evidence of leakage, inside or out, around any of the through-bolts. That is all clearly visible on the inside with no more effort than it takes to look into the sump (see pics below). What is not clear is why someone thought a ground plate was necessary.

The OP described "ice in the bilge within a few inches of the top." On the contrary, there is a little over 1" of ice in the bottom of the sump (19" below the top), apparently the water that the bilge pump couldn't get as it would have been sucking air at that point. It must be the same ice the OP observed as the temp hasn't been out of the 20's here since the day he saw it. I did not see a clear indication of the source of the water in the sump but it does not appear to be a leak from below the waterline as there is no "mud" in the sump. (The Vermilion River is muddy and a thin layer of mud generally accumulates in the bilge of a leaking hull.) Ideally, the sump would have been sponged dry when the boat was put away but it wasn't. Regardless, 1" of ice will not harm this strong area of the keel.

The OP should consider editing or deleting his post, or at least the identifying information in it because it, and the subsequent replies, unfairly harm the seller's ability to market his boat.

[brackish]

Strange that the OP would not have noticed the screws and other attachments on the inside of the bilge area in the area of the "plate" since he did look in to see that it, in his words, was filled "with ice in the bilge within a few inches of the top".

In my view it would be in the owners best interest to completely expose the area, inside and out.  Since the current owner cannot comment on the attachment which is not stock, I would be interested in how and why it was installed.  Were dissimilar materials used that might create an electrolysis condition with one component being sacrificial creating a weakness and future leak?  Why is it there?  Is it to dissipate an electrical strike?  But completely sealed in gelcoat creating isolation?  And why install a plate which would create turbulence in an area that is designed as a foil for best performance?

And what is the source of the water, an inch remaining from pump out or otherwise?  Mine never has any.  Could be just the draining of the water tank, but that should be addressed by the current owner.  Or it could be a hull to deck seam above the water line, or worse, something below the water line?

Given the information that the members of this forum received, the advice was varied, and in most cases, advised that additional information and inspection would be appropriate.  In my view, that is still good advice.  This may be a fine boat that is well worth the price, but without careful inspection and the relevant answers, a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted.  I would seek and consider the advice of the members of this forum, but it would be my own analysis of those often conflicting opinions and my own eyes or those of a competent surveyor that would determine whether I would buy or pass.

I'm curious, John R. what is your interest?  If you are the current owner, or represent the current owner, provide full disclosure with the information to discuss the issues if you like, and the members of the forum will certainly help to clarify those issues to the best of our collective ability.  Nobody here is trying to keep the boat out of the hands of a prospective owner who will be a valued member of our community.

my $.02 worth, and like my original response, which was to comment on the depth of the bilge area and to advise the seeking of additional information, my liability is limited to exactly that amount.

[Bob23]

John:
   Maybe the seller should've known more about his own boat, eh? Remember that we give our opinions here and no one if forced to heed them or even read them, if they choose not to. Maybe the water had been pumped down when you saw the boat.
   At any rate, I'd buy it but not for $5500.00. Like Brack- my $.02
Bob23
(More opinion- that looks like an amateurish attempt at lightning control. Please don't go gettin' all in a huff...just my opinion!)   

[geopilot]

It now appears that the plate in question is a lightning grounding device. As the original poster, my apologies if I mislead anyone- I had no idea what it was, and since I only had a day to make a decision on this boat, I sought advice here. I did not notice the wiring leading into the keel, and my memory was wrong on the depth of the ice. Again, I had a short amount of time to look at the boat and was trying to check a lot of different things. I will edit the original post to reflect the new information. Thanks for clarifying - and I am glad it does not appear to be a serious problem.

[newt]

All posts are opinions and if new information is available from the owner we would be happy to add it to the thread. If there has been a miscarrige of justice, please contact a mod and do not try to correct our members (please

[John R.]

I am not the owner - but I know the owner - and I am not an interested party in the sale of this boat. I only got involved because I was asked to check out the plate to see what it's for and then to address the comments in this thread. At that point, only 8 of 14 replies actually addressed the OP's concerns (the other four were the OP's own posts). Of those 8, only two suggested investigating further (Ed Buchanan and Brackish). The rest speculated on the nature of the plate, what it is for, what it conceals and where the water came from. Three recommended "walking away" from this one altogether.

I don't know why some previous owner installed the plate - you could speculate on that for days. What's the difference? The question is not why it's there but whether it represents some problem to the safety or structure of the boat. Visual inspection suggests it does not.

If I was in the market for a CP23, this boat looks like a good buy. Checking for 80's era CP23's on Yachtworld shows five boats that range in price from $7900 - $14,900. The asking price on this boat is just $5500 with an almost pristine interior, a hull and deck in good shape and a two-axle trailer. Maybe you should reconsider, Bob! Here's a link to the ad for anyone interested in it: http://www.trailersailor.com/index.php?option=com_adsmanager&Itemid=298&page=showad&adid=11219

Thanks. I'm not in a huff - just don't like to see bad information drive a discussion.

John

[brackish]

John, I would suggest that when you speculate on the nature of things such as a non-stock plate and water intrusion, you are giving a tacit recommendation to investigate further.  I would take it that way at least as it would provide some alternative direction for that investigation.  But, you're right, what does it matter.

That said, with what I now know and if further investigation should reveal nothing else negative, I would not hesitate to buy the boat if in the market.  The first thing I would do is remove the plate, glass in a back patch on the inside of the bilge, and fill the holes created to install the plate from the outside, fairing them back to the original foil surface.  A relatively simple task that would eliminate any concern about electrolysis, or what might happen if a contained plate is actually involved in an electrical strike.

This, of course, is an opinion and the opinions of others may vary considerably.

[Salty19]

Based on the information originally presented which is what we had to go by (ice to top of bilge, unusual draggy "patch"), I stand by my comment to pass on the boat.

Based on the new information presented, it would certainly warrant a careful look by an experienced professional IF you are willing to live with it (poor foil design, potential for leaks) or repair to your satisfaction.  Frankly I would still pass on it.  Would rather have a non-modified keel and am entitled to that opinion. However the price is right even though it's winter and Ohio is frozen solid for many months to come.

For comparison, here's a keel in excellent condition: (the white streak is just the camera doing strange things)

[Greene]

Geez Mike - it must have been hard to clean that bottom with a magnifying glass and Q-Tips!  I don't have the time, patience or willingness to clean anything that well.  Impressive, just plain impressive.

Mike

[Salty19]

lol...nope, that was after one swipe of bar keepers friend.  The keel was in that good of a condition when I picked 'er up!

[Bob23]

John:
   I don't need another 23. I bought mine for less than $5500 in much better shape with no plate screwed to the keel. But thanks for thinking of me. I think it's a buyable boat given the info we have recieved.
   I stand by my remark that I don't like the lightning bonding arrangement. Each stantion, chainplate, bow and stern rail, etc. should have a dedicated wire leading to the bonding plate which I've never seen attached to the keel but rather to the underside of the hull. If I were considering this boat, this arrangement is a negative and would further drive the price down.
   Man, Mike: That keel belongs in a museum! She's a beauty!
Bob23
(ps: I agree with Newt: Don't try to correct a member. Most of us are too damn stubborn anyway. I speak for myself.)