GPS limbo

[rwdsr]

Ok, question time......I do have detailed maps (charts?) of the Lakes I run, even some maps of the Cumberland river around where I do my fishing, but would like an inexpensive GPS.  Any suggestions on brand, and round about price?

[Steve Ullrich]

I bought a Garmin eTrex Venture Cx on eBay last summer along with a Mapsource CD.  It is a nice easy to use color unit with a memory card slot.  With Mapsource I can load maps from all over the country.  It has on or off road capabilities so I can use it in the car or on the boat.  I've used it in rental vehicles in Tucson as well as on the water in Minnesota.  I like it a lot.  I paid around $130.

Ok, question time......I do have detailed maps (charts?) of the Lakes I run, even some maps of the Cumberland river around where I do my fishing, but would like an inexpensive GPS.  Any suggestions on brand, and round about price?

[kahpho]

The Rest of the Story.

The elderly couple who drove their SUV into the snow and were stuck on a remote Forest Service road because their GPS led them there, were otherwise well prepared for winter travel. They carried with them plenty of food, warm clothing and two cell phones. Ironically, their rescue was expedited due to... GPS. The 911 operation was able to obtain a fix on them because of the GPS built into one of their cell phones!

Coincidentally, further north (at about the same time) another couple suffered the same fate following their GPS. A family member, realizing they were missing, used an identical GPS, entered their start and destination points, set it for "shortest route" and followed it right to them.

Initially, my reaction to these stories was much the same as many of you. I'd stop short of suggesting anyone deserves to die for making a stupid mistake. If that were the case, my personal history would, no doubt, have been cut short in my youth. Their trust in electronic infallibility is really no different then a boater neglecting to match the datum of their GPS and charts and then following it onto the rocks. Most here seem to know to verify the results of their navigation. That's good. But here's another example. In college, during final exams, a fellow in my class who knew the material better then anyone else didn't question the answers his calculator was giving him. Turns out his battery was low causing funky results. Oops. Smart guy but he failed. At work we call 'em cockpit errors. Watch out for them too.

mel

[Joseph]

Going back to GPS... For coastal cruising in small bodies of inland waters (my prevailing kind of sailing) I only found one use for the GPS: returning to port in the night I always feared hitting the dozen or so unlit race markers positioned in a 2-3 mile radius circle around the lake. So, one morning I visited them all and logged their positions in the GPS. From then on I could sail to port in the night while keeping a watchfull eye on them in the screen of the GPS. The Garmin also came handy on the night of the big NorthEast Blackout in the Summer of 2003 even if that night we never did actually sail in the dark as later that evening there was a big glow to the East and the Full Moon slowly raised behind the unlit landscape skyline... quite an unforgettable sight!

J.

[Steve Ullrich]

We sailed on Lake Millacs last summer with Nate D.  Millacs is a very large lake and all points on the shore pretty much look the same once you are two or three miles out.  Setting a way point for the marina was very useful.  Also somewhat instructive... as that is when I learned that there are on and off road settings for the hand held GPS.  The Millacs trip was the first time I used it.  That was pretty interesting.  I failed to select off road the first time out.  The GPS then chose to direct us to the closest road on the shore, expecting us to get on the road and drive back to the marina.  Fortunately the road selected was only a quarter of a mile from the marina and once we were close enough to the shore Nate could tell where we were.  I have also used it many times since in off road mode and it works very well for keeping track of ramps and marinas.  It was also fun to see how fast we were moving. 

On road trips it lets us know what services are located at upcoming exits, local attractions, locations of transportation terminals, shopping, etc. Overall, I think it was well worth the money.  The key is the MapSource CD though.  The base map loaded on the system wasn't nearly detailed enough.  It wouldn't be nearly as useful without the ability to load maps of cities and regions on to the hand held unit.

Going back to GPS... For coastal cruising in small bodies of inland waters (my prevailing kind of sailing) I only found one use for the GPS: returning to port in the night I always feared hitting the dozen or so unlit race markers positioned in a 2-3 mile radius circle around the lake. So, one morning I visited them all and logged their positions in the GPS. From then on I could sail to port in the night while keeping a watchfull eye on them in the screen of the GPS. The Garmin also came handy on the night of the big NorthEast Blackout in the Summer of 2003 even if that night we never did actually sail in the dark as later that evening there was a big glow to the East and the Full Moon slowly raised behind the unlit landscape skyline... quite an unforgettable sight!

J.

[Potcake boy]

I have a Garmin chart plotter on my boat - came with the package.  Don't have one in my vehicle because I haven't found it that difficult to follow the roadway and road signs.  Actually I think a conspicuously dash mounted GPS makes the driver appear at the same level of competence as one of those McDonald workers that can't count change.

I feel that GPS is another technological layer to the aids we have available for successful navigation.  Used in conjunction with other aides it can be useful and in some circumstances more expedient than manual plotting.  However, I do question the wisdom of permitting any device to make decisions on my behalf that involve life and limb.  If I make a grave mistake that puts my life at risk, I'd rather it be my own decision so I'll know who to be mad at.

Ron

[brackish]

I have a Garmin chart plotter on my boat - came with the package.  Don't have one in my vehicle because I haven't found it that difficult to follow the roadway and road signs.  Actually I think a conspicuously dash mounted GPS makes the driver appear at the same level of competence as one of those McDonald workers that can't count change.

So Ron, you're in a strange city and have to make a dozen or so stops to addresses you've never been to.  You think street signs and paper maps are a superior way to do that?  Wow!

As one who worked at McDonalds for several years (before the computerized cash registers), and later ran a very for large manufacturing organization, I would be more suspect of the competence of someone who could not recognize the advantage of appropriate new technology to increase efficiency.

[Steve Ullrich]

I have to go with Brackish on this one...  I don't know the roads in Tucson, I live in Minneapols... I don't even know all of the roads in Minneapolis to be honest with you.  I found the GPS to be much safer to use than taking my eyes off traffic for long enough to try and update my location on a map, and the map doesn't beep at me when turns are coming up... The GPS made it simple and safe to get from the airport to my son's home on the other side of Tucson, and back again, with no wrong turns and both hands on the wheel.

I have a Garmin chart plotter on my boat - came with the package.  Don't have one in my vehicle because I haven't found it that difficult to follow the roadway and road signs.  Actually I think a conspicuously dash mounted GPS makes the driver appear at the same level of competence as one of those McDonald workers that can't count change.

So Ron, you're in a strange city and have to make a dozen or so stops to addresses you've never been to.  You think street signs and paper maps are a superior way to do that?  Wow!

As one who worked at McDonalds for several years (before the computerized cash registers), and later ran a very for large manufacturing organization, I would be more suspect of the competence of someone who could not recognize the advantage of appropriate new technology to increase efficiency.

[Potcake boy]

You know, it strikes me as really strange how dependant people feel they are on these gadgets.  I spent 20 years in outside sales work, and never had a problem finding my way around.  I do like Mapquest but it's just a replacement for conventional maps.  I followed the flock and had a cell phone for a few years but at seeing how expensive it was getting I dropped that service.  Haven't had any withdrawal from that.  Why didn't I have any emergencies that required a cell phone to call for help?  Oh I so wanted to call for help like those On-star commercials.

I think a lot of folks just convince themselves they need these things to be in step with the times.

I don't think there is a right or wrong here, but I like to see the preservation of self reliance and the simplicity of life.  I just don't see the value of immersing myself in these tidbits of technology when I already have the capability to lead a normal and fulfilling life without them.  But that's just me, never watched much TV as a kid, was usually outside being fascinated by nature.

So to all you self proclaimed geeks out there, when your batteries run down you are welcome to follow me home.  The Vendee Challange sailors all use GPS, weather services and other high tech aides to sail a better race, but I'll bet all of them can find their way by sextant.  Too bad we have lost the navigators that had the skill to find their way by natural things that us modern sailors don't even notice.

Glitzy gadgets are fun and amusing, but not as necessary as many claim them to be - just don't forget how to count change when you are paying for these things.

Not embarrassed by low tech:
Ron

[newt]

You know Ron, I don't care that our politics are completely different. In this issue we see eye to eye. I can't wait to retire to a job as shipwright- so I can throw my %$##$% phone were it won't bother me ever again. And I will live for weeks at a time without touching one thing electrical. And if you see me diving off Panther Key, it won't be because my GPS tells me this is a good place to fish! With just a grandson or two for crew we will be making memories that will be there long after I'm gone.
So what would the cellular network say about coverage if we all did that?

[brackish]

You know, it strikes me as really strange how dependant people feel they are on these gadgets. 

What strikes me as strange are individuals who confuse dependency with convenience or efficiency.  As a manufacturer I made parts just fine with conventional machinery.  But over time as technology changed I could make them much faster, at a higher quality level, maintaining far less inventory with DNC machine cells.  But maybe I should have not made that transition because I might become "dependent" on the new and much better technology.  Of course, I'd have gone out of business.

I'm really curious about your plan for making port in a complete dense fog, particularly where there may be freighter traffic.
I'm interested because I've been caught in that situation many times outside of Gulfport Harbor where the freighter channel and the small craft harbor entrance converge and are within about fifty feet or so of each other. 

My wife, who has a GPS "conspicuously mounted on her dash" read your comment equating her competence with an individual who is incapable of making change.  Certainly you should stay away from her.

Let's throw the toilets out of the house, outhouses worked fine!

[Potcake boy]

Newt - I'm happy to know that you understand the essence of my view.  Some call it minimalism, I just see it as the preservation of human value.  At the end of the day all we really have is ourselves.  Many people today are fretting and wringing their hands over the economy and their valued "things" so they haven't stopped to understand that their most precious possesion is their life.

Don't worry about the political differences as they are just superfluous distractions in our lives as well.  It's like the clothes we wear, it shows our human diversity.  Next year it will all change anyway.

So now that we have had a robust conversation on this topic, how does it address the original question of this thread - has anyone lost their life for the lack of a GPS (I don't include acts of stupidity in this question) - even more to the point has a day's sailing been any less pleasurable for the want of a GPS.  If the answer to the last part is yes, maybe you should stick to navigating around your neighborhood with your dash mounted Tom Tom.

Sailing is the most rudimentary form of combining the forces of nature with human intellect to achieve a goal - it is the nature part that keeps us sailing.  In my opinion we have never been able to improve upon nature so the more gadgets we introduce to our sailing the more we are distracted from the simple pleasure of sailing.  How can you compare fooling around with gadgets to sitting back under sail enjoying a conversation with your sailing buddy or simply looking around and feeling the motion of the boat and the breeze on your flesh?  I have sailed a lot of years before GPS and I can say that I wouldn't enjoy it any less without.  What it all comes down to like I said before is not a matter of right or wrong but a question of preference.  I prefer to keep my life as uncluttered as possible.

I don't wish to bore with so much rhetoric but great stories of survival aren't tales of some clever use of a techno gadget, but rather the will, determination, and ingenuity of the human spirit.  There are thousands such true stories, but one that is most poignant for us sailors is the survival of Shackleton and the crew of Endurance.  Is GPS necessary - hardly.

Brackish - I appreciate your need to remain competitive for economic survival but I'm afraid the real confusion here is your comparing industrialization ambitions to sailing.  I would think they are quite opposite endeavors.

P.S. Newt are you referring to Panther Island in the 10,000 Islands?

[HenryC]

There is a commercial on TV that shows a guy locking himself out of his car, calling on his cell phone to an operator thousands of miles away, that sends a signal via satellite to his car, unlocking the door.

I used to have an '82 Datsun 310 that solved the problem much more elegantly. You couldn't lock yourself out of it.  Three doors could be locked from within by just pushing down the door button, or from outside, by pushing the button down and just slamming the door shut  (for child safety and security), but the driver side door would automatically unlock itself when you slammed it shut.  It was impossible to lock yourself out.  If you wanted to lock the car up from outside, you needed to use the key on the driver's door. A mechanical key; no electronics involved.

Problem solved.  No cell phone, no operator, no satellites, no electricity. Nada. 90% of our so-called modern conveniences are just marketing gimmicks.

Actually, there was one way to lock yourself out, and one day I discovered it..

1) Leave the key in the ignition.
2) Roll up all the windows.
3) Lock the driver's door with the latch button.
4) Slide over the stick shift handle and go out the passenger door.
5) Push down the passenger door inside latch button, hold down the outside button, and slam it shut.

Fortunately, my wife had a key.

[brackish]

Brackish - I appreciate your need to remain competitive for economic survival but I'm afraid the real confusion here is your comparing industrialization ambitions to sailing.  I would think they are quite opposite endeavors.

Not true Ron, I was responding to your comment on the use of GPS in automobiles and the quite demeaning comment you made on the competence of those who "use" but are not "dependent" on the technology.  Most driving is to achieve a goal, that is get to the destination in the most efficient manner, very similar to manufacturing.  Most of the time, when just out for a sail, I never turn mine on.  But when needing to make port in limited visibility conditions, it is wonderful. 

[Craig Weis]

Oh snap! Henry reminded me about that Datsun...The wife had a Datsun 310. And a 240-260-280-300 Z car as well.
The 310 blew a head gasket waiting and idling in 'N' at a railroad crossing on the very day that John Lennon was murdered.
That night I had the head in my hand. Next morning the Datsun parts guy saw me walking to the parts counter with blown head gasket in hand. He simply reached behind him and pull a fresh head gasket off a peg board and handed it to me. NOT ONE WORD FROM HIM, except "see ya." I turned around. Left the old gasket on his counter after checking to make sure the two gaskets matched up, jumped into my 1959 Austin Healey 100-6 and motored home and put the 310 back to get her..

As you said above: Nothing like a simple car.

My favorite car! A 1963 Dodge Dart GT Convertable 225 slant six, push button auto, even a foot squeeze windshield washer squirter, hyd top. A rheostat on the heater fan. It was so cool.

Took this car, Ziggy, to an honest 155 mph at 6,750 rpm on the single nickle toll road between Chicago and Dekalb. Ziggy a 1976 XJ12C, bought as a roller, would change her rake at speed and squat down, butt high. Don't try to open ANY window or sun roof at speed.
Wife called it 'baby poop brown', Jaguar called it Sable.
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