CP16 sails into wind better without jib

[jpfx]

I've had my 76 CP16 a couple of months now and have had a chance to get out enough times to figure that something's not quite right.

The main sail is relatively new and still crisp. The jib is fitted with a SS roller furling system and the sail is older. It still has the eyes for 'standard' fitting but the leading edge is sheeted. The base of the jib reaches back as far as the sides stays, maybe a little more. I rig the lines outside of the side stays.

What I noticed almost immediately was an inability to turn into the wind much closer than 'beam on' (90deg) without the jib luffing/flapping around. This has led me close to many a lee shore. In very light wind beam on, I have drifted sideways on several occasions. This last weekend I went for a sail. I started out fine with the wind behind me. When it came time to turn around I just couldn't make any head way without the jib flapping around. As far as my sailing technique goes... when the sail luffs, I should ease off until the sail fills again. The wind was getting up so I decided to roll in the jib as I was on the edge of my current comfort zone. Lo and behold, I can tack into the wind much better. At least enough to make progress upwind anyway.

I'm trying to figure out what is wrong, with my actions or the boat itself and hope some of you with more experience can offer some suggestions.
The boat handles fine otherwise. There's a mild weather helm with or without the jib and it turns comfortably. Apart from going sideways in very light wind, I have no concerns about how it handles. I would imagine these are two aspects of the same issue.

The hull is sound, there's a battery under the companionway and up until last weekend the was a 5hp Nissan on the back. I have now switched to a 45lb trolling motor which provides all the manoeuvring I need. It is fitted with the original slab rudder. My sailing skills are minimal and my experience is nowhere near enough to make an educated guess about what to do.

Thanks for any feedback.
jp

[romei]

Welcome aboard jpfx.  I've had much the same experience that you are having when I sailed with the original rig, and even with my current rig.  (I've made my CP16 into a gaff rigged cat boat)

Are you sailing in current?  What several of us who have the older 16's without the centerboard noticed is that, when sailing into the current and the wind, we all seem to struggle a bit.  But when sailing into the current with the wind at our backs, everything is fine.  Conversely, when sailing into the wind with the current in our favor, again, everything is fine.     

Fighting both at the same time can be cumbersome, if not impossible.

Where are you from and do you have any pics of your boat to share with us?

[hitchhiker]

I think rigging the jib sheets outside of the side stays is the cause of the problem. Aren't they supposed to be rigged inside the side stays?

[nies]

THE JIB SHEETS ARE SUPPOSE TO BE OUTSIDE THE STAYS, OTHERWISE YOU COULD POSSIBLY TRIM THE JIB TO FLAT AND CAUSE AIR FLOW TO BACK INTO THE MAIN RATHER THAN A SLOT OF AIR FLOW BETWEEN THE MAIN AND THE JIB. BOTH SAILS SHOULD HAVE THE SAME BELLY. IVE NEVER EXPERIENCED THE PROBLEM YOUR HAVING  OR IM NOT UNDERSTANDING THE SITUATION. SOUNDS LIKE EITHER YOUR NOT GAINING ENOUGH SPEED OR JIB IS NOT TRIMMED TIGHT ENOUGH OR YOUR RELEASING THE JIB TO SOON OR ALL THREE........GOOD LUCK,............NIES

[multimedia_smith]

Hi and welcome...
In my experience... if you're overpowered... it's better to use Jib only as opposed to Main only... you'll be able to come about more readily with just the jib... or better yet jib and reefed main.
Also, about the crabbing (going sideways) thing... It sounds like you may be stalling the sails... Since the jib is fluttering, I'm thinking it's the main.  In order to get power from them, you have to let some air through the sails... try letting out on the sheets and bearing off a bit.  Once you get some headway, you'll be able to head back up... but only to a certain extent (note I didn't say the words "only to a certain point").  But the fact is that these boats will go upwind just fine, but they are not deep centerboard pointers.  Once you get to know the characteristics of them, you'll learn to love the simplicity and ruggedness.
Happy Sails to you
Dale

[Steve Ullrich]

I've had the same experience in light air.  By that I mean that on occasion I have been unable to get up enough speed to tack through the wind and have had to actually jibe around to a new point of sail.  As for the sheets.  I generally rig them outside of the stays on my 16 but in light air it will point higher if I re-route them inside of the stays.  I've also sailed with the jib alone, and the main alone. I've also found that sailing with the main alone will let me point a little higher in light air.  On days with winds over 5mph you should be able to fly both sails and run your sheets outside of the shrouds and be able to make enough speed to tack through the wind.  

Just had a thought... It is possible that you are releasing your jib sheet a little too early.  When you tack you are crossing the wind.  Don't release your jib sheet too soon.  Let the head sail back fill and it will help push your bow around.  Wait until your boom comes across and the main starts to fill before releasing the jib sheet.  Just release it and let it slide through the fairlead.  ((You should have a stop knot in the end of the sheet so it doesn't slide out!))  The wind will blow your jib through the fore triangle and you can easily sheet it in on the new course, just sheet it in until it stops luffing.  Same deal with the main... let it out until it luffs and sheet it in until it just stops luffing.  

When I started sailing I bought "Sailing for Dummies" at Barnes and Noble.  It helped me quite a bit.  I also took an ASA sailing course called Basic Keelboat.  That was really helpful.  There are also some on line courses that you can find with a Google search that can be very helpful... Hang in there, sailing isn't hard, you are going to have a lot of fun with your new 16.  Fun and stable little boats for certain.  

Welcome to the forum!

[Bob Condon]

Actually, when tacking through the wind, we hold the jib in place as long as we can..
What happens is the wind catched the jib and forces the front
of the boat around much quicker, you release the jib on one side and pull in on the last side.

The first couple of times it feels funny, but very effective.

I do not race (lack of interest) but a common technique used.

Bob

[NateD]

It sounds like you have an oversized jib. My standard 110 jib just barely reaches back to the stay, but the clew of my 150 jib reaches well past the stay. The jib sheet runs to cam cleats on the cockpit combing on either side of the cabin. The 150 jib sheets need to be run to (preferably) travelers mounted further back on the combing in order to get the jib shape correct. If I try to run the 150 jib sheets to the cam cleats near the cockpit, I can't get the proper sail shape, and I image it would luff excessively.

Do you have travelers setup for the jib sheets, or at least some type of cleat further back on the cockpit combing?

In heavy wind I have found a reefed main and 110 jib to work the best for me. Without the jib I often find it impossible to tack (as Steve said). I have not tried sailing with just the main in light wind.

[Bob Condon]

Nate,

Not sure who you are addressing...

I have a CP19 to start with

I do have a 150 Genoa which I built and the sheets go through the block on the track for the jib/genoa,
then to the winch and finally to the cleat as necessary.

When you tack, you need to get your speed up even if you have to point down wind, and then bring the rudder
around fully and keep it there otherwise you can stall in the tack, -or- not go far enough and then gybe as you are
pushed back to your original course... (did that in a 44 footer ONCE)...

Bob

[NateD]

Hi Bob,

   I was referring to jp's setup. If he is flying an oversized jib and is cleating it off near the cabin, that could cause the luffing/poor sail trim.

Nate

[jpfx]

thanks for everyones replies.

From what has been said, I am definitely loosing the jib far too early. I will let it help the boat round in future.

As to the main problem (unable to sail into the wind much better than abeam).. I think my expectation were a bit high probably from reading books which show quite a tight 'no go' area. I will be fitting a windex so I can get a better idea of the angles. I still think it should be better than parallel to the wind with the jib unfurled. I haven't tried furling it a bit though.

One other thing I noticed is that on main alone i have to ease off with the tiller when there are strong gusts to stop it from luffing. I initially thought this was the wind gusting WSW when the normal breeze was W but now I think it could be the dynamics of my sail layout.

I also suspect that the way the jib is on the boat might be a bit suspect. It's a sail I've seen mentioned in these forums; yellow and white diagonal stripes. an original 130% maybe that has been adapted for furling. It might be higher than intended with the furling spool, or I might just have it set wrong. I will take a pic at the w/end and add a link here. It might not be as big as I first indicated but I think it could be larger than standard and high.

I have not been reefing the main because there are no reef points which is a shame. I've thought about rolling it around the boom but will have to replace the gooseneck first as it's a bit beat up and might not hold up.

Some general info. I'm in SC and have been sailing on lake murray and lake greenwood. So there's been no current to speak of. The boat has been seen in these forums before and was skippered by 'killjoy' in the past. I bought it from him.

jp

[Craig Weis]

The one and only time I put my CP-19 rail in the water after years of trying, I was sailing only on the 155% headsail. Use the tell tails. Mine were plastered to the lapper. Here is a picture of the very day. Note the 1/2 hatch drop board in place. Just in case...

skip.

[kickingbug1]

   i have sailed with my striped jib a few times and found that my boat points better with the smaller jib with the sheets running inside the side shrouds. i also have an ida rudder which i think is a big help, but without a centerboard or deeper fin keel you can only do so much.

[B.Hart]

  I have found my 16 will point better with the jib vs genoa or main only. my jib is original and very worn and I think It would sail even  better with a new one.   BILL

[nies]

BILL, I SAILED WITH MY ORGINIAL(1978) SAILS FOR TWENTY YEARS, ALWAYS TOOK VERY GOOD CARE OF THEM, DECIDED TO REPLACE WITH NEW IN THE WINTER OF 1998 THE MAIN AND JIB. SPRING CAME AND I RAISED MY NEW SAILS......I COULD NOT BELIEVE THE DIFFERENCE . I HAD BEEN SAILING WITH A SIEVE FOR SAILS,  THE CP16 ACTUALLY STOOD ON HER STERN AND TOOK OFF SO FAST IT JERKED MY HEAD BACK. WELL MAYBE A LITTLE OVER THE TOP, BUT IT WAS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SLOW AND SAILING AGAIN. JUST BECAUSE YOUR SAIL DOES NOT HAVE HOLES IN IT DOES NOT MEAN AIR IS NOT FLOWING THROUGH IT.....NEW SAILS IS LIKE GETTING A NEW BOAT OR THE OLD ONE BACK........NIES