Aft Stay on a CP16?

[NateD]

I have what looks like through decks for an aft stay. Examining the bedding and the way the gunwale was cut, it doesn't look like a factory install.  There doesn't look like there is any mounting point on the mast, so maybe they weren't meant for a stay. Anyone have an idea of what these would be for?

[nies]

GREAT QUESTION, ONLY THING I COULD THINK OF WAS REAR TIE DOWNS FOR A BOOM TENT, BUT CERTAINLY WOULD BE OVER KILL.........NIES

[NateD]

The boat came with a boom tent, which oddly enough did not tie down anywhere, it just rested on top of the boom. I have no idea how the thing would stay up (so I added some eyes to the canvas and some tie downs, but they don't tie down to cleats, not those through decks).

Nies - You mentioned that your CP16 I had a heavy helm, much more than just weather helm. Mine does too. After a day of sailing in heavy weather my arms get sore.

One way to solve this would be to get more aft rake in the mast right? With the factory sidestay forestay arrangement, there is no way to do this without tightening the sidestays (and loosen the forestay), which I've found leads to my mast making some funny shapes in strong winds. I'm wondering if the original owner may have rigged up, or attempted to rig up an aftstay to get more aft rake to solve the heavy helm (which I agree is a better term for what it feels like than weather helm). Maybe I should continue the process and see if it works.....

[nies]

NateD,  WE CP 16 BOAT OWNERS ARE GREAT FOR OVER KILL , WE LIKE TO RIG OUR POCKET CRUISERS FOR SOLO AROUND THE WORLD SAILING, IM CERTAINLY GUILTY OF IT. AS I STATED BEFORE, MY " HEAVY HELM" HAS DISAPPEARED WITH MY NEW IDARUDDER. THIS REMINDS ME OF "THIS OLD HOUSE" GUESSING WHAT A STRANGE LOOKING TOOLS FUNCTION IS, WE NEED NORM OR MAYBE SKIP......NIES

[nies]

NateD,AWOKE THIS MORNING, I REALLY NEED ANOTHER LIFE, THINKING ABOUT YOUR STERN STRAPS(TANGS), COULD HAVE BEEN USED FOR SOME SORT OF LIFTING RIG.....NIES

[NateD]

Nies - It is just like guessing the tool use on This Old House! Every time someone puts a foiled rudder on they say "It feels like a completely different boat." Well, I can feel the 2-foot-itice creeping up on me, even though the 16 fits my needs in about every way possible. So my plan is to wait until I really feel like I want a different boat, then buy a foiled rudder and it will feel like I have a completely different boat.

What do you mean by lifting rig? Like lifting the boat out of the water/off the trailer?

[Craig Weis]

That is a owner installed chainplate for a back stay that is pictured on a 16 in NateD's first post. IMHO.
As said a factory install would have a chunk of plywood fiberglassed into the hull as a backing [hard point if your Air Force] and the fasteners would be through hull with ss bolts, washers, lock nuts and 3-M 5200 slow set sealant. I don't think this would be used to lift the boat [ignoring the fact that there are two on the stern, I'm just looking at the starboard chainplate] since, with just one, it is off-center plus it might just rip out of the 1-1/2 oz impregnated woven fiberglass cloth. And this rig and sail cut has no advantage when bending the mast to configure the main and/or the head sail. She ain't no cup contender. Use slings/straps at each end of the keel for any Com-Pac.

May not be the same mast, is there a stay wire?
I'd use it even if I had to go and buy a 5/32 stainless steel wire with a swedged-on turn buckle at the hull end and an eye at the mast end for a tang and pin that was pop riveted on to the mast with steel [not aluminum] pop rivets.
I used the steel pop rivets for my boom vang bail [say that three times fast].
Rip-rap-row. skip

Then a short U-clamped wire on this back stay with a quick disconnect at the boom. This would substitute the "Lazy Jack" holding the boom up while main sail was down. That would be sorely needed. Perfect for a boom tent which ought to be bungeed to the life lines that are not on this boat either.

My stay on the stern of my 19 is off set like in the picture.

Two reasons why the arm gets tired holding the tiller. One is the blade is not down fully and is kicked back a bit. Like the old style cat boats with barn door rudders way astern of the transom. The skipper needs a long tiller for some mechanical advantage here.

The other is it is a slab and not a BALANCED foil.
A balanced foil has a bit of the rudder forward of the rudder post. Like power steering for the tiller.
I bolted my foiled rudder down using a snowblower shear pin and eliminated the line to pull the rudder up. Never used it anyway.

Canting the mast forward to reduce weather helm is not necessary according to a talk I had with Mr. Hutchins at the All Sail Boat Show in Chicago years ago. He said, "If you weatherhelm, your sailing out of control".

[nies]

Nies - It is just like guessing the tool use on This Old House! Every time someone puts a foiled rudder on they say "It feels like a completely different boat." Well, I can feel the 2-foot-itice creeping up on me, even though the 16 fits my needs in about every way possible. So my plan is to wait until I really feel like I want a different boat, then buy a foiled rudder and it will feel like I have a completely different boat.

What do you mean by lifting rig? Like lifting the boat out of the water/off the trailer?

NateD, IN THE 1970 s LIVED IN THE QUAD CITIES AND BELONGED TO THE LAKE DAVENPORT SAILING CLUB. WE SAILED OFF THE LEVEE ABOVE THE ROLLER DAM ON THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER. OUR BOATS WERE STORED ON THE LEVEE AND LIFTED IN THE WATER BY STATIONARY CRANES. YOU WONT BELIEVE THE SET UPS USED TO PUT THE BOATS IN THE RIVER. RIVER SAILING WAS INTERESTING TO SAY THE LEAST........NIES

[Craig Weis]

Morning NIES, [one can highlite-copy-then paste into your reply, if you don't want to do the quote thing] the parents went through a number of houseboats [5] on the Wisconsin River [Sun Prarie] then Illinois River at Starved Rock Marina on the high side of the S.R. lock and dam after they sold off the schooner and Star boats in Chicago. Mom's back was bad so a more stable on-water platform was necessary.

I think it was 1969 while steaming the houseboat down river to New Orleans from Starved Rock, Illinois during that summer we stopped at some river town [Vicksburg, Mississippi ?] to get a hotel with a TV so we could watch Neal Armstrong jump around on the moon. Dad's birthday July 19th. What was really cool was while locking back up towards the Illinois River the lockmaster handed my dad an envelope with a colored drawing in profile of our River Queen black hull and tan cabin houseboat where the address should have been. It was from my H.S. girlfriend, Rose who simply addressed it to "The Lock at ? on the Mississippi River." Life is strange. She died of cancer years ago.
skip. 13:20:34? you don't sleep?

[nies]

THANKS SKIP, ILL TRY IT NEXT TIME..........NIES

[KPL]

Heavy Helm ---
One thing to look out for, and I know I'm guilty, is oversheeting the main.  It is easily done.  If you don't have tell tails on the leech of the main, you NEED them.  Even on a close reach, ease the main until the tell tales are streaming aft, this is the proper sail trim for the main.  I find I often oversheet the main, which introduces significant weather helm.  Ease the main, and trim the foresail, and the weatherhelm is much more behaved.  IMHO, of course.

Skip -- You an Air Force guy? 

Kevin

[nies]

KPL,FOR ME THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WEATHER HELM AND ALSO A "HEAVY HELM". THANKS FOR THE TIPS. MAYBE ITS AN ILLUSION, BUT IN MY HAVING SAILED A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT BOATS OVER THE YEARS, I BELIEVE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. COULD BE A DISTINCTION WITHOUT A DIFFERENCE .........NIES

[Bob23]

   I suppose that one mans weather helm is another mans heavy helm. Every sailboat should have a bit of weather helm but when you come back with hurting arms, well, that's heavy, man. I don't own a 16 but my 23 definitely has some weather helm, heavier on some points of sail than others.
   I think NateD in a few posts up mentioned raking the mast aft in order to lessen this. Nay, nay Nate. I raked my 23's mast forward about 2-3 degrees this year and that helped alot. And Kevin is right- oversheeting the main will increase weather helm. My 23 is due for a new mainsail because she's kinda blown out. This loss of shape has moved the center of effort of the main aft and this has increased the weather helm and decreased the boats pointing ability a bit. I find as the wind picks up, I reef my main thereby transferring more of the work of the sails to the jib and the weather helm decreases noticably.
   I know that the foiled rudder helps a lot, due to what I've read here. I suspect that a small skeg in front of the rudder would help also but I'm a bit reluctant to start drilling holes in the bottom without some more research.
   Sorry about the bunny path, guys. That does look like someones intention was a split backstay, maybe adjustable. Not a bad idea, eh?
Bob23...my 2 cents

[Craig Weis]

KPL my dad was retired Navy. Thanks for the B-1 story above. Years ago while attended a celebration the Navy's Terry Snodgrass was the Naval Aviator of the year and Snodgrass flew a Tom Cat in every which way possible. Includes full burn.
That was the only way the SR-71 'Blackbird' ever flew with off the shelf Pratt & Whitney J-58 afterburning bypass turbojets, designed in 1956. Each engine churned out 160,000 shaft horse power and the 'suck in' produced more thrust then the exhaust and and each engine consummed more air then the entire population of China for each minute of operation at Mach 3 while having an exhaust temperature of 3,400 deg F. at 82,000 foot. God Bless America!

As a 11? year old kid my dad got me a ride on a Lockheed P2V Neptune from Norfolk to Pensacola and back after an overnight, "You was never there, hear that skip?" Sir, yes sir!! When do I go? Thanks dad. Hows that for a bunny path?

Bob23~What is a bunny path?
NIES our fully rigged Star boat was trailer stored on the hard and lifted by a single eye bolt screwed into the keel.
No not Air Force Kev. I read that tid bit in the book by Ben Rich and Leo Janos, Skunk Works. Some amazing engineering feats in aviation. My head still spins...here. Like this on page 197 of the book.

"Kelly [Johnson] argued with Washington that our tremendous height and speed advantages were the most potent factors in making us difficult to detect, but the White House and the CIA were not mollified. So we decided to apply radar-absorbing ferrites and plastics to all the airplane's leading edges-a first in military aviation. We kept the twin tails as small as possible and decided to try to construct them entirely with radar-absorbing composites-a significant technological breakthrough if we could actually do it. But "hiding" this airplane seemed impossible. The tremendous heat generated in supersonic flight made infrared detection inevitable. How do you hide a meteor? Our Mach 3 airplane would streak across the sky like a flaming arrow." Cool?
skip.

[KPL]

Skip -My dad is retired AF, and I spent five years in prior to a medical discharge.  I loved it.

I think one of the crazy things about the SR-71 was the fact that it leaked fuel like a sieve on the tarmac, so that when it heated up at speed the tanks would seal and not buckle...Imagine trying to get that design brief to fly nowadays?  It's really quite amazing that those plains where designed with great engineering, but also alot of 'gut' and "that looks about right'  Cool stuff indeed...

One of my favorite moments was when I graduated OTS.  We were facing the reviewing stands with our families and the brass, and a watching b-1 line up fly straight over them from behind at about 300 feet with full afterburner.  Scared the crap out of 'em all...