Mast Deflection

[mattman]

Al, So there is no prebend, the wind picks up, loads the headstay and windward shroud, the shroud is brought into higher tension pushing the spreader into the mast and creating a bend. I have the picture, but not sure of the fix other than a set of lowers. Btw how much did you have to take up on the turnbuckles when you pulled the spreaders off, just curious. The other question, how much breeze are you talking about before you see this and get worried? I am not sure what the design parameters are of a 16, but I would think given they are out of the Tampa bay area, that they envisioned the boat to be used by young family and older sailors moving down in size (citation-Practical Sailor),  that they were looking at those local conditions. I sailed the Tampa gulf coast area for 4 years, the water is pretty skinny, and wind conditions are generally pretty light until winter when a north northeasterly fills in at about 10-15 kts. Seas usually are fairly round unless beating up the bay where the waves seem to have less of a back, and a pretty crappy pounding when against the tide. Given this I would expect some rig strain in conditions above 15 although I haven't noticed any on my standard rig. Although I believe the boat would be fine, for me the fun starts to drop and the work sets in above 15, meaning it is fun for an hour or two but not for a 10 hour day. Btw I got knocked down in the 16 a couple of weeks ago by a 21 kt gust( wasn't paying attention) shipped about 15 gallons on board and about 2 went right down the companion way, interesting to watch it run right in there as the boat righted! Also I was surprised how much came in through the aft lazarette. That was reefed main and 110% closehauled and sailing by myself with 195 lbs on the windward side,( beer cooler centered below offering no particular assistance ). Sorry to digress, I haven't felt the rig was not suited for these conditions, but do think that 15 is probably the upper edge of when the boat was intended to be used.
Best of luck and keep us posted please.
Happy Sailing

[Salty19]

My understanding of the design philosophy of the 16 is to squeeze as much stability and seaworthiness into a package that will fit in a certain type of shipping crate which explains the dimensions/draft.  I could be mistaken.  If it is true, this may of been misguided.  Afterall, who doesn't want a trailer for their 16? Few for this size boat anyway.

Matt-Your knockdown shipped quite a bit of water!   Gusts are rarely fun especially when it involves a bucket and sponge

Al- I agree with Bob23.  Sounds like you need to re-tension things with the mast slightly forward of vertical.  Make sure the spreaders are the correct length as well (who knows, a prior owner may of changed them?).

[Bob23]

   15 the upper end? We get 15 knots of wind around here all the time and that's when I put the first reef in my 23's main. I'd be willing to bet the 16 was designed for and could handle a great deal more. It's us humans who are the weak link.
   Certainly glad you didn't invite more water aboard...can't say I've had the pleasure of water entering my cabin. I'm a firm believer that the waterline should stay on the outside of the boat!
Bob23

[Al]

Hi All,

Just for heavy weather experience, I routinely sail with a reefed main in 15-25 knot winds on local lakes and have sailed in Corpus Christy Bay in 15-20 knots with 3 foot rolling waves. The boat was rock solid crashing thru the waves with spray over the bow. On those occasions I did notice the mast bending but thought it was the high wind. However, last week I was cruising in 10-15 knots and noticed the mast bend and thought "what's wrong with this picture?" Apparently, with a full main, there is enough force to straighten the windward sidestay and push the spreader into the mast. Loading a bent mast in compression can't be good, so I took the spreaders off and tightened the sidestay turnbuckles by less than an inch. Has anyone noticed that the new CP Legacy and the M15 do not have spreaders.

Al

[mattman]

Hi Bob, I indicated "intended use". I don't consider 15kts a lot of air for your 23 or any of my other boats, however at 15 the cp16 is getting a little overpowered, harder to keep on her feet and beginning to stall somewhat in a 3 foot chop. I was surprised that she didn't stand up a little better, but as I look at her, she is pretty round on the bottom without a stiff turn as she enters the freeboard. Keeping her on her feet to minimize leeway on a beat starts to get a little tougher. By the end of the day all you see is yarn!  A lot one designs are designed in term of wind and water conditions and recommended or limited crew weights. I believe the Flying Scott recommends 6-12kts (though we don't plane a lot in 12, Y-flyer about the same and planes well in 12, Lightning maybe a little more (3 man crew), E-scow now that would be a ride in 20!! An  A-cat lost a rig this weekend in 18kts. I am not saying one shouldn't or can't sail a 16 in over 15, I am just saying that I believe her performance begins to suffer at that point, as does it's performance suffer under 5kts of wind.

Salty, I have heard that about MacGregor 26, the quote: "dimensions of the Macgregor26 were not determined by what would be seaworthy, or even what would be legally trailered: rather, the boat was laid out so that four of them would fit on the truck at a time." (Practical boat buying Belvoir Publications 1992). But somewhere I remember something akin to your statement-maybe this forum?? And yes I bought the 16 to trailer around, see new water, eat sandwiches and drink a few beers with other friendly sailors. So far so good!

Al, I find that in over 15 kts just the jib on the 16 sailed better that just the main alone. Couldn't beat to windward well at all on just a main,same thing sailing up to the dock. On the jib, she sails pretty well. I put the reef in at 10-12, drop the main at around 15 and sail happily under jib after that. But it is a wet ride, amazing how much water collects on the leeward seat pooling nicely around my gps...


Happy sailing.  

[jb]

Mattman, I concur with your observation of sailing with the jib only with 15kts of wind!  Actually, I was pleasantly surprised at how comfortable and relaxed the sailing became after dropping the reefed main...hull speed dropped about 1 knot. I had a second reef put in the main this fall and looking forward to trying this option, with the jib, under similar conditions?

j

[nies]

My 78 CP16 sails under jib alone with great ease in heavy winds, so much so I purchased a storm jib but the standard jib worked just as well........only the storm jib is smaller and made with heavier cloth/stitching.....................Steve I am still using the cockpit grate you designed and sent me the spec's on, thanks again........................nies

[kickingbug1]

    not meaning to disagree but i have sailed my 16 many times in 15 knot plus winds. my main has no reef points and i have never felt overpowered. maybe the ida rudder does make a difference. as suprano says "all due respect---just sayin"

[Bob23]

   One thing I don't think has entered into this discussion is the condition of the sails. When I first bought my 1985 23/2 about 8 years ago, she had her original suit of sails and to my untrained eye, looked ok. But during any kind of gusts, she would heel over quickly so early reefing was a must. Since I had never owned a 23 before, I didn't know that this was not normal.
   When I first visited a local sail loft here in NJ, the owner looked at my sails and said politely "These sails haven't been good for a long time" and chuckled. Because of thier great reputation and their knowledge of my local conditions, I left the final sail design up to them. Btw, "Them" is John Eggers Sailmakers in South Amboy, NJ. (No commercial relationship)
    The first time out, I could feel a world of difference. When the gusts hit, the power was immediately transferred into forward motion. Not only was she much more comfortable to sail, she was much faster. I also was able to point much higher and didn't need to reef quite so early.
   Maybe this will help or maybe it will further confuse things!
Bob23

[Al]

The Idasailor rudder definitely helps with weather helm, as does a bow sprit. New sails would really be nice. I think I'll try the jib only for high winds (especially down wind with a following sea) and approaches to boat ramps without a beach area. All good ideas.

Thanks, Al.

[jb]

kickingbug1

some clarification, overpowered with wind over 15 knots was not the issue. At this stage of my life, preference, when conditions permit, is given to a more lazy type of sailing....dry, balanced and hands off the tiller is my goal. New Ida Rudder on hand for next season, looking forward to see if the positive recommendations will allow me to fall asleep while sailing (joke)!!

Bob23

point well taken, still have the original main on my 96 and it is tired but still in usable condition...just returned from Sailcare. I'll give it another year?

jb

[Onehandsailor]

On my first outing on my new to me CP-16 I did not like the mast visibly flexing a lot, so I installed a home made diamond, problem solved.

[nies]

I still have my 78 sails in useable condition, replaced them 8 years ago and you can  not believe the difference in the boats performance, there is a point where the sails look good but air is going right through them as the fabric is tried , just my experience and thoughts.......( new sails and the Ida rudder and you have a new boat).......................nies

[Bob23]

jb:
   Before I bought my new sails, I sent my originals to Sailcare. They were crispy and fine for about 1 1/2 seasons. Although Sailcare can extend the life of the sails, once they have lost thier shape, they really need to be replaced. I'm glad I dealt with Sailcare...saw them at the Annapolis Sailboat Show...Sam is always a pleasure to meet.
Bob23

[jb]

nies & Bob23,

o.k., pretty compelling entries about the advantages of purchasing a new main sail !!

Questions, did you just order a stock mainsail for your specific year CP16 or did you make any changes other than the # of reef points..  loose footed,rope or slugs on the foot?

any recommendations as to where to make the purchase at a reasonable price?

thanks,

jb

nies, I copied your system for a down haul on the Ida Rudder. thanks for your suggestion.