Better Pointing to Windward

[seabulz]

My Compac 16' "Miss Biscuit" and I go back a ways and although I have peeked into the forum I have never been registered on the Compac Owners Site. Of course that has changed today and I must say I have learned more after reading the several pages of postings this afternoon than in the previous 13 years of trial and error modifications and jury rigged solutions.
Congrats on very good site - I hope to maintain the quality of dialogue.
Now to the point, better pointing.
I am a previous veteran of center board skiffs and dinghy's that point like the dickens and turn on a dime: Cat rigged Lazer's, a Texas built 14' called a Banshee, Holder 12 and a wierd but fun and fast twin swing keeled Chrysler Lone Star 17".
The C16' has a lot of good qualities but one which I have often tried to improve upon with marginal success is her ability to point well. One of the first things that came to mind was to move the jib sheeting points inboard (mounted about two inches inboard of the cabin roof outer edge all the way aft). This does help in good wind when the keel is biting well and we are going along at speed, but when we are going slower it seems like the boat crabs alot worse than when I use the original sheeting points along the rail (outboard of the shrouds). So the advantage of higher pointing becomes a cruel mirage since the boat itself is
making no better distance upwind than rigged in the original manner.
I wonder if others have worked out a better way?
Is this where the IDA Rudder I've been seeing in postings comes in?
I sail the Pacific out of Oceanside Harbor in San Diego County so don't see alot of Compac's around - this is not really a haven for small cruisers and what is here seems to be Potters - any San Diego sailors on board?
Again - thanks for the great information I've been getting, it makes me wonder what took me so long to get with the program.

[Paul]

Congrats on successfully registering.  Yes, the information here is broad and deep (goes way back).  Oh, and Welcome to the group!

Regarding the pointing, these boats are not know for their pointing ability.  Comparing a CP-16 to the other boats you mentioned is like comparing apples to oranges.  These boats have a shallow keel and a bit more ballast.  And, yes, the original rudder acts more like a break (lots of drag).  See the other post I addressed.

A couple of things to consider:  1)  condition of sails, 2)  rake of mast, 3)  are the sails drawing when going to windward or are they stalled, 4)  is she balanced fore and aft.  All will contribute to pointing ability, but the rudder plays the biggest part in this, IMHO.  Anyone else may add to the list if I forgot anything.

Personally, I prefer the jib sheets lead outboard of the shrouds, but it seems that a few others have found a little success inboard.

Have you hooked up with any of the Potters?  I understand they are a great group of folks.  Lots of Potters on the west coast.

[Bob23]

Seabulz:
   Check out the classifieds...there is a Idarudder for a C16 for sale!
Bob23 in NJ

[Rick Klages]

As is true for almost all shoal draft keelboats to windward is her weakest point of sail.  A good hint is to steer almost to a close reach to get the water flowing across the keel (laminar flow), then tighten up into close hauled.  It has been stated that both the bowsprit and the IDA sail rudder help (a lot).  I've never sailed this boat without either.  It is easy to stall the keel on a CP-16 but this also makes this boat easy to sail in difficult conditions for those of limited experience, this is to be read as she is "forgiving".  The 16/3 has the jib sheets led to moveable cars on the cockpit coming. This track runs the length of the raised portion of the coming and affords different sheeting options as the weather and point of sail dictate.

Comparing her to a racing boat of any size (not indicating that you were doing so directly) is to compare a Toyota Corolla to a Porsche Cayman!  The CP acts like boats much larger and of an older vintage. I have owned both larger and faster and neither brings me the joy I receive from this one. It doesn't pay to try and fix what isn't broken, she is the result of the compromises her designer chose both fair and foul.  The greatest improvements will come with those modifications already stated.   Good luck!

Wellcome to the forum

ick

[Potcake boy]

Seabulz,
I sailed a Santana 20 for about 6 years - pretty close to the size and weight of my CP19. The major difference you probably know is the design - Santana 20 being a race boat. The Santana was a dream to sail, she handled as well as anything I've sailed (except my Dragonfly tri). A 4' fin keel - spade rudder - performance designed hull shape - taller fractional rig - inboard shrouds - a bit lighter wider, and more WL. Now you could modify all those things on you CP 16, or get yourself a Santana 20' - should be a lot of those in Ca. and probably a racing class assoc. in every harbor.
The first boat I ever owned was a CP 16 new in 1980. She did everything she was built to do. She taught me how to sail and seamanship - she was affordable and simple to rig and sail and held up well to the kind of accidents new sailors tend to have. She forgave my mistakes and always brought me home safely.
I sought out a boat to suit my present needs and found the CP19 to fit the bill perfectly. I wanted a little more room than the 16 so I could do some cruising.
Haven't had her that long but my first experience has proved once again that Hutchins built a good boat and true to purpose. She goes in shallow water with no worry, she is stiff in a breeze and with reduced sails she still handles nicely in a blow. She is comfortable and accommodating and simple to sail - that's how she was designed.
The really deep cut of the main does bother me a bit but she ain't no windward witch with the hull and keel configuration any way - she wasn't designed to be.
I believe you will be best satisfied with your CP16 if you sail her in the fashion for which she was designed and don't try to do stuff she wasn't made for. It is an easier sail to fall off the wind a few degrees and pick up a little extra speed and not have to be riveted to the tell tales to act on any little shift of the wind - that can lead to a sore neck and your beer getting warm. I am having my own personal struggle remaining true to my vow of simplicity. I just got rid of a Dragonfly 25 tri and that boat was all performance rigged so I am having to force myself to put aside the temptation to put the same expectations on my CP19. I know that if I start going in that direction I will never be happy with this boat.
To make that point, I have kept the sail plan simple. I kept the 110 on the furler and the original padeyes. I bypassed the 150 Genoa because of furler issues or having to go back to hanks, and  no futzing with the track adjustments. Instead I opted for a North G3 genniker, which is a relatively small and flat asymmetrical. It is capable of close reaching, and I can fly it opposite the main using a whisker pole for downwind sailing. Makes sailing in light air a lot more fun.
So as far as pointing - if your not racing and need to get home straight upwind no one will criticize you for using your motor - especially your passengers. If you really need to point high then get one of those fancy racing boats - they are also good for loosing weight.
Enjoy the water even if it's in an old spinach can with a mast stuck in it.
Ron

[Potcake boy]

JustStartin
That is the leech line and cleat - used to take slack out of the leech so it wont flutter - theory has it that provides better exit airflow but I think it's more a matter of eliminating a distraction.
I'm sorry I didn't check what you are siling but if it's an older CP16 it is probably roller reefing (furling). Pull aft on the bom and see if it comes out of the square socket on the goose neck and turns. That's roller reefing.
Ron

[Rick Klages]

JustStartin
That is the leech line and cleat - used to take slack out of the leech so it wont flutter - theory has it that provides better exit airflow but I think it's more a matter of eliminating a distraction.
I'm sorry I didn't check what you are siling but if it's an older CP16 it is probably roller reefing (furling). Pull aft on the bom and see if it comes out of the square socket on the goose neck and turns. That's roller reefing.
Ron

Did you land this on the right thread?  I do remember a leech line question over in c-19. 

ick

[Bob23]

Cap't Ick:
   Good to hear from you again. Iv'e never owned a Porsche Cayman but have owned many Corollas! Although my 23 might be compared to a Camry, again- owned many of 'em. I love Porsches and BMW bikes but for sheer practicallity, I'll take my Tundra anytime!
   Good advice you gave there, Cap't. It's good to be content with what you have and the ways it can be improved. My 23 ain't no Corsair, but I love her!

  Bob23, content

[Rick Klages]

Bob,  3 camrys, 2 Siennas, 2 Tacomas, a Prius (first generation) and 2 Corollas.  We have had a few Toyotas.

ick

[seabulz]

Thanks all,
I did look at that IDA Rudder in the classified and will follow-up on it (am in Toronto today and hope to get a sail on the lake Thursday on some larger sailboat a buddy has) as soon as I get back to Carlsbad to check funding. You all know that means 'ask my wife", but when I tell her how important this is to better performance... well, how can she resist.
I think I will take the other, more zen, approach as well. Due to all the other characteristics of the C16 I have logged more ocean miles, seen more whales, dolphin and caught more fish slow trolling or "hove to" than in all the other craft I ever owned (including a big, bad center console fishing boat). In no case did I not get to see what I wanted to due to being able to follow the needed course. So, "Pointing" I get it.

[Paul]

RE permission:  My wife took the opportunity to give me the Idasailor rudder for a B-Day present a couple of years ago.  Maybe.......

[wildwill]

Mine changed the boat's performance completely. Next is a Genoa....so it goes.



Will