Can you tip these babies over?

[newt]

This threat has already helped me with my sail handing on my new 23. Took the main up today in no wind and took a good look at it. It has a line for reefing through a little pulley on the boom, set that up and redid the out haul so it is much easier to manage.  Also I found the stopper for the main to keep it from falling out when I take it down..LOTS BETTER! We had very little wind so I couldn't tell how the reefing will go, but I am looking forward to it. I think I will reef the first time in the slip, and go out that way, then try it later when the wind is coming up and the weather is going south.
BTW, took a friend this time, and put on my sopenders. Left the jack line and tether down below, but I sure know where they are. Sure my friends will giggle, but let them. I plan on being an old sailor.
Newt

[kchunk]

Not to pound this subject into the ground, but let me ask you folks what size are your reefing lines? My 23/3 came with a main with two reef points, but the hardware on the boom will only support one line. I've done a lot of research on the topic and I think I'd rather have both reef points rigged and ready to reef at any time rather than trying to reeve the single line from the 1st reef point to the 2nd reef point...especially in a blow requiring a second reef. I've tried 5/16" double braid but it seems a bit too large. Would 1/4" reefing lines be too small? If I can go with the 1/4" I'll just mount two cheek blocks, one to turn each reef line on the boom to a pair small jam cleats on the boom for each line.

I hate sweating the small stuff, and sometimes I might even seem a little obsessive, but we're planning a trip to the Keys this summer, and although I've never sailed the Keys before, I been down many times and know what the weather can be like. The afternoon storms can be sudden and severe. I just want to make sure the boat and I are as ready as we can be.

--Greg

[Bob23]

Greg:
   I agree and am already planning to install a double cheek block. My lines seem to be 3/8" and fit just fine, although it seems a bit large. I probably used what was available- these lines were not in place when I purchased the boat. The lines I have through the reef points in the field of the sail are 5/16" and are always attached through the grommet with a stopper knot on each side.
  Bob23

[kchunk]

 Bob, I was thinking double cheek block too, but I think a double cheek block won't work here. Either the first reef won't have enough outhaul or the second reef will have too much outhaul and not enough downhaul.
I think I'm going with two line of 1/4" and use spectera. But I think the cheek blocks should be just aft of the reef cringles. A double block will have the block too far aft to be effective for the second reef.
I don't know, just obsessing I guess...

[newt]

I got two cleats and two blocks at the end of the boom, I thought everyone did. It helps for the first reef, I guess I could turn into a double reef system if I just tied my out haul  directly into where the topping lift attaches. Do you guys want pictures? It is set up like they show in the Annapolis book. I just have it set up for a single reef right now with the other block controlling the out haul.
I also have two cleats forward on the boom. Any ideas what they are used for?
BTW, sailing out here is great- no more near disasters, just that first day.

[Bob23]

Newt:
   My guess is that the two cleats on the forward end of the boom are for each individual line for each outhaul grommet at the reef points. Just a guess, mind you, and my terminology may not be correct.
   I just recieved my main back from the sailmaker (John Eggers, Inc.  NJ) with the 2nd reef points installed. Wonderful job! Any of you New Jersey sailers reading this, Eggers is a true professional-highly recommended.
   Tentative launch date: May 3rd!!!
Bob23

[mike gartland]

I'm a little late commenting on both of these threads but would like to add a couple of comments/experiences.

As for the ability of these boats to bounce back onto their feet, a week ago I was sailing with my wife and a friend who is a sailor but had never sailed on our CP23 previously.  We were sailing with a full main and perhaps 25% of our 120 genoa reefed on our CDI roller furler in 10-15 knot winds.  Our friend was at the helm and just as we came about onto a starboard tack and I was still in the process of winching in the genoa a sudden gust from a nearby thunderstorm hit us hard.  I had been responsible for manning the main sheet as we have a mid-boom sheeting and bridgedeck traveler system on WindRush but had dropped the sheet into the cockpit sole to attend to my genoa sheet duties.  The gust took us over hard and I was surprised and a little shocked to see green water pouring over the port coaming and into the cockpit.  Thank goodness for the bridgedeck and the fact that with thee of us in the cockpit we were trimmed a little low in the stern....the wide open companionway looked like a big open mouth ready to swallow up that water if it hadn't immediately drained aft toward the scuppers. I didn't take time to glance at the inclinometer on the bulkhead as I was scrambling to grab the mainsheet at my feet and pop the jam cleat.  As soon as I did so she popped up immediately and we sailed merrily on after a couple of "whew!"s.  I've previously seen the inclinometer go to 45 degrees when the black rub rail is in the water so this gust must have taken her past 50 or 55 degrees.  The bottom line is that the 23 is a very stable and forgiving little boat, even with her shoal draft keel.

On the second thread...mainsail reefing on the CP23...I added a second set of reef points to the original set soon after acquiring the boat (WindRush is a 1989 CP23-3 that I purchased two years ago.)  The current reefing configuration is a first reef at 36 inches above the foot of the sail and a second reef at 86 inches above the foot.  These points result in a sail area reduction to 75% of full main at the first reef and 46% of full main at the second.  I find the first reef to be useful with sustained winds above 15 knots.  I have still not had to go to the second reef but it is there in case I find myself far from shore when a thunderstorm catches me unexpectedly.  As for rigging the reefs, the first reef came rigged with a cheek block and small horn cleat for the outhaul along the starboard side of the boom, the same side as the reefing hook at the gooseneck.  I use sail stops to keep the sail from falling out of the mast slot when the main halyard is eased...since I have still not replaced the backstay pigtail with a topping lift (the unused jib halyard sheave will be used to install one the next time the mast comes down) I still need to briefly reattach the boom to the pigstay while the sail is lowered to the reefing hook and the first reef outhaul is tightened and cleated.  I feel this is a potentially dangerous procedure in gusty weather as the boat is in danger of a knockdown if a stray gust should catch the boat broadside while the pigstay is attached.  Needless to say, I put this first reef in early and as quickly as possible.  The outhaul line for the second reef passes through a cheekblock and is tied off to a cleat on the port side of the boom.  This keeps it from interfering with the first reef outhaul assembly on the opposite.  Since there is not room on the reefing hook (half a ram's horn?) for both reef grommets, the tack of the second reef must be secured with a line around the bottom of the boom as this can be done from the port side of the mast as well as the starboard so it isn't a problem.  Both reef outhaul lines (1/4 inch) are permanently installed on the sail and ready for use at all times as are the shorter tie lines (3/16 inch) which are permanently installed through the reef cringles across the middle of the sail.  I have read that these ties are not necessary but they seem to me to give the sail a better shape when it's reefed. 

As a side commentary, when I have been tempted to completely furl the genoa and sail under main alone I have found that the boat does not point well and is much more difficult to tack (coming about as quickly as possible seems to help) but with even the smallest triangle of jib unfurled the performance improves dramatically.  I have never tried to quantify it but I am guessing that with only 15 or 20% of my genoa unfurled the boat performs much better than when fully furled.  The bottom line is that with the combination of these two sets of reef points on the main and the roller furling genoa the boat is capable of withstanding a wide range of winds...probably a lot more that I am.

Fair winds,
Mike

[JF AIR]

Good day Mike
I also own a 1989 23 / 3 and the idea of a mainsheet traveler has been nagging me since I purchased the boat and while in the learning process, encountering sudden gusty situation with full main up that could have been managed easier with just a fast decentering of the main
Would like to have more info on how your bridge deck tvl sys is instaled...I also consider a mid cokpit instalation although it would kill the cokpit confort
If you have any pictures and explanation , it will be very apreciated
JF AIR

[Lost Lake]

LL, I bought a Davis "Tiller Tamer" from Worst Marine. Before I took a drill to my tiller I tried a few different locations for the tamer as well as the cleats and just didn't like how the setup had to work on my 23/3 so I scrapped the idea and opted for the Cajun tiller tamer instead. Google it if your not sure what it is. Works like a charm. Set up is easy, uses spare line you probably have laying around and involves no drilling. And best of all...the price is right!

Here's a good site for the Cajun tiller tamer http://blumhorst.com/potterpages/Photopoint/0005/cajun-tiller-tamer.htm

If you still want a Davis Tiller Tamer, I'll sell you mine, brand new from West Marine for $30. I'll eat the tax and shipping to you. http://ecatalog.westmarine.com/full.asp?page=1251&LinkBackProdId=10192

--Greg

Sorry I never got back with you Greg.... I like the Cajun tiller tamer idea! Why didn't I think of that?

[Salty19]

Yeah, I know this thread is old.  But I'll toss in $.02 anyway (keep the change!).

On my 19 I rigged a single reefing line.  On the aft portion of the boom, from the factory was a padeye on port and cheekblock on starboard side of boom with cleat just forward of the cheekblock. Located about 5-6" aft of the clew outhaul.   This was intended to run a line up the port side of the sail, through the reefing grommet (aka cringle) and down on the starboard side to block, then forward to cleat.  The foreward reefing cringle just hooked onto a built in hook on the forward portion of the boom.

So, not one to leave things along, and looking for a single line to pull w/o standing in the companionway--ready to be knocked off the boat from a perilous boom, I bought a new line (34' long), had a splice added to one end (aft end around port side padeye) ran it the same way but continued it forward along the boom to starboard. Put two more padeyes along the boom on starboard side to keep the line from sagging much when not used.  Then put another cheekblock on the mast, level with the boom and a padeye on the mast portside, below the boom about 8". The line continues through the boom padeyes, through the mast cheekblock, up through the starboard side of sail forward cringle, then down port side of sail to the mast padeye.  Since my jib halyard is not being used (homemade furler), I continued to run the line through the existing standup blocks to port, through the open cheeck block and through the open jam clear right next to the main halyard.  So halyard and reefing line are side by side.

Proceedure is: Tighten mainsheet, point into wind, Loosen main halyard, pull tight on reefing line on port of side of cockpit (it's a hard pull), then tighten halyard.  Then tie off the two middle reefing cringles (I sometimes do, and sometimes do not). Done.

The reefing line acts as an outhaul since the aft portion is aft of the cringle.   Problem with this setup is the line is hard to pull as there is a lot of friction around the grommets/cringles.  Wish someone would make a "cringle bullseye" "cringle block" to minimize this friction (alas harken didn't reply to an inquiry about this).  Maybe I should patent the idea?

Anyway, I don't have to even get up to reef anymore. But it does kind of crush the mainsail on the forward portion, but I can release the sailstop and let the 2 (or is it 3?) sail slides come out of the track to minimize crushing.  Just need to remember to put the slides and sailstop back in when unreefing/readying for docking.

Of course this line is a difference color from all others to easily identify it.   

If you want to see pics, let me know...dont' have any at the moment but can take some.

[Craig Weis]

Nope. Not a 19

[curtisv]

Newt,

Joining this thread late.

Re: Can you tip these things over?

If by tip you mean dunk the spreader tips, then yes with enough wind and too much sail.  If you mean capsize and sink I'd say no you can't with wind alone.  Waves could roll the boat and compacs being a bit beamy could turtle.  Careless sailing in 8 foot waves or more could do it.

Re; Anyone ever dip the spreaders?

A few years back I sailed in 20-25 knots gusting to 35.  We had gybed and rounded up to head upwind and were about beam to the wind when we caught a bit gust.  That came close to a spreader dip, but not quite.  Sheeted out the main a bit and continued to head up and she came back to her feet.

That was with a second reef in the mainsail (CP23 with second reef added) and a 110 jib furled only a few turns.  That's a lot of sail for 25 knots, too much for 35 gusts.  If I were going to sail any distance I'd change to the 60% jib or at least roll up a lot more of the 110.  At that wind speed changing roller furler headsails is a bit of a challenge.  I've taken the 110 down it at 20 knots and put it back up to see how hard it would be and that wasn't too bad at 20 knots.

BTW- Barely saw anything much over 20 knots this season, maybe low 20s.  Summer winds seem to be getting lighter in our waters.

Curtis

[newt]

Thanks Curtis, this is answering a question I had asked you in another thread. I am planning to do the great circle in my CP-23 ( down the miss, over to the bottom of Florida, up the coast to the Hudson, Erie canal, great lakes and Chicago. I was just wonder really how much ICW I would have to do and how much I could go off shore (abeit not far off shore).

[curtisv]

Thanks Curtis, this is answering a question I had asked you in another thread. I am planning to do the great circle in my CP-23 ( down the miss, over to the bottom of Florida, up the coast to the Hudson, Erie canal, great lakes and Chicago. I was just wonder really how much ICW I would have to do and how much I could go off shore (abeit not far off shore).

Newt,

Sounds like a greate adventure.  In a CP23 I'd be concerned about any leg that was more than a day or two between safe harbors.  Even more so if you are single handing.

If you go offshore, or more accurately light coastal cruising, you should do a few things to your CP23 first.  The biggest risk is a sudden thundershower.  These are unpredictable, they can bring strong winds, sometimes storm force or more, but usually disappear as fast as they appear.  The persistant gales or storms that bring big waves generally arrive with 2-3 days notice or more.  North Carolina is known for surprise storms.  New England too, but you won't be going up the coast that far.  We've had 45-50 knots of wind with only two hours notice but it was passing severe thundershowers.

If you are coastal day hopping from harbor to harbor, you can expect to see high winds eventually.  Its nice to have the right sails to sail relatively comfortably in a near gale and know that you could handle a bit more if you needed to.

Put at least a second reef in the main.  Don't even consider leaving with just one reef in the main.  Consider putting in a third reef given the length of the trip you are taking.  If you already have a working jib in the 100% to 110% range, get another smaller jib.  I have a 60%.  Consider a storm sail, though a heavy 60% on a roller furler is getting close to storm sail size (might not hold up though).  A genoa is nice if you want to get somewhere and the wind is very light but don't count on furling it more than 30% smaller and still having a useful sail.

Have lots of ground tackle.  I have 80' chain, 250' 1/2 braided nylon.  Usually anchoring in 50-70 keeps you out of rough water (you'll get big swells).  Many harbors can't be entered once conditions worsen and wave pick up.  Waves can quickly pick up to 6-8 feet in a gale so you may have to wait it out just outside a harbor if the weather is expected to pass.

Its a good idea to install a fixed mount VHF and a masthead antenna.  GPS and depth are handy.  GPS is good to have if you run into fog.  A depth gauge is handy in unfamiliar water with shoals, or any water with shoals familiar or not.  Don't forget your radar reflector and put it up if fog rolls in.  Make sure all your lights work and that you have some way to keep the battery charged and/or enough battery capacity to keep them going.

There are a lot of good books with helpful advice.  A have a web page with some that I've read at http://www.faster-light.net/remote-access/book-reviews.html.

OTOH - If you are spending most of you time on the ICW and then going up the Hudson you are taking a fairly safe route.  It depends on whether you plan to take the outside route in places.

Curtis

[newt]

I have 2 reefs in the main- the second is aggressive. I think I may sew a trisail before I leave.
I am rerigging to a cutter with a staysail and running backstays. I will also have a drifter.
I currently have a CQR on a chain rode. I have a second anchor, but rope rode. Will probably get a claw with chain rode.
VHF in and operating. Deptsounder/logger in. GPS in. Chartplotter- probably use an I-phone! Solar and Trojans in. All lights functional.
Still have to paint- check for leaks, install icebox, thinking about honda generator.
Maybe I'm alittle over the top, but it works for me....