How far over have you taken her?

[Ralph Erickson]

While sailing in my 19 on Saturday, the winds were pretty stiff.  At one point, we had the starboard rail in the water, with full main and partial jib.  We pointed into the wind to remedy the situation and shortened the jib even more to prevent that from happening again, but it got me to wondering.

Has anybody here ever filled the cockpit with water on a 19?  If so, what happened then.  Any body ever put water over the rail on purpose to test out the results?  I've been tempted to do that, just to test it and feel totally comfortable with the boat.  There is no doubt in my mind that if the jib were fully out on Saturday, we would have had a lot of water over the rail.  I have the same question for a CP16. (My brother bought my 16, and wonders the same thing for his boat).  Naturally, we are both worried about capsizing, even though logically, it doesn't seem possible for either the 16 or 19 with so much ballast.  Another, perhaps better question:  Has anyone ever had the sails in the water in a 16 or a 19? 

Ralph

[Craig Weis]

After four years of trying I put the rail in enough to...
1~Take on water over the cock pit combing.
2~flush over the seats in the cock pit.
3~Empty out through the scuppers.
4~Head sail only, 155%.
5~Able to stand on the vertical surface of the seat on the low end of the cock pit.
6~Had a ball laughed my *** off!.
7~Could not have done it without the IdaSalor foiled rudder.
8~Button up the boat so she can't flood the cabin.

Have fun skip.

[mgoller]

Hey Ralph,
I've sailed the 19 a lot and never had her more than about 12 degrees, (typically I sail 0-10 degrees).  I make hull speed when ever the winds are strong.  This weekend the winds were a steady 20+ with gusts to 29 mph.  These were cool winds and packed a lot more energy.  At first I had the main reefed with no jib, then I let out the genoa to maybe a third.  Couldn't point well so I let the main out and flattened it out using the outhaul.  Things were tight.  The sail shape was more like a flat F-16 wing than a glider wing.
Then I used some jib and things were balanced.
Once I got to the open water the wind speed was ferocious and I spooled in the jib and sailed just main.
I sailed to wind shadow at the other side of the lake and dropped the main.  Then I liesurely rode the 20 mph winds home with just the full genoa.  I leaned back in the cockpit and flew across the lapping cats paw with barely a breeze at my back.  Good sailing.

I just don't think the 19 is designed for heeling way over.  Its champagne glass shape resists heeling and likes to sail at 5-10 degrees.  If this spoils the thrill its the wrong boat.  The 23 has the rounded hull of the 16.

Once with the 19's full main and the spinnaker out I was caught by a hard shifting gust off a point and came close to dumping her.  Sails were in and water was at the rail.  This wasn't sailing, it was more of a goof.

I quickly let out the spinnaker sheet and headed up and she bobbed right back up.

The 16 is very different in her hull shape.  That rounded wine glass shape wants to heel over and sails nicely at 20 degrees.  In fact the waterline is lengthened as she heels and so she moves faster.

When I was in my teens we purposelfully dumped our sailboats for fun.  We called it "pirate sailing".  We'd sail close to others and board them pulling their rails under.  In they'd go. 

Now, with the bigger boat its the last thing I'd want to do.  I don't really try, but it seems like it would be really hard to get water in the cockpit of a 19.  You'd have to present wholesail to the wind, and get on the leeward rail to do it.

Again the 16 is a different story.  You'd have to want to run her under but it would be a lot easier.  She's shaped like a football, so by adding more and more power she'll run under.  Eventually the 450 pounds of ballast will catchup, but I suppose two people on the leeward side would balance that.

[Rick Klages]

The 16 is very different in her hull shape.  That rounded wine glass shape wants to heel over and sails nicely at 20 degrees.  In fact the waterline is shortened as she heels and so she moves faster.

Did you intend to say lengthened?

"A general design rule is that the longer the waterline, the higher the Hull's speed potential. Perhaps the most important change when a boat is heeled is the length of the hull in the water, which is also known as effective waterline length or sailing length. Before the advent of rating rules based on computer performance prediction, designers working with point-measurement rules naturally strove to create hulls with more effective waterline length when heeled than what was measured for ratings purposes when the boat was upright."  - Steve Killing and Doug Hunter

http://www.sailingworld.com/from-the-experts/boat-speed/how-heel-affects-speed-and-handling-201160.html



ick

[Ralph Erickson]

Marcus wrote:

"Once with the 19's full main and the spinnaker out I was caught by a hard shifting gust off a point and came close to dumping her.  Sails were in and water was at the rail.  This wasn't sailing, it was more of a goof."

I think you hit the nail on the head.  We have plenty of shifting gusts at Lake Nockamixon, and that's when the rail goes into the water.  However, it happens when I have the full main and partial jib.  I'm a relatively new sailor, having learned to sail at age 50 just 4 years ago, so the "goof" part certainly is in the realm of possibilities!

Thing of it is, I don't want to heel that far.  I'm more into comfort as opposed to the thrill of heeling at this point in my life!  I was just very surprised to see her heel that far, after hearing much about how hard it was to get the 19's rail in the water.  I don't seem to have any difficulty doing it at all!!! And I wouldn't mind, but it kinda scares you into thinking you are going to capsize. 

Ralph

[mgoller]

Ralph,

Ok, good.  I really don't know how to talk about something I don't want to do.  So, we are in the same camp.  We like water but not up around our necks that much.

If you are finding your 19 heeling that much something is different between yours and mine.  First thing - how old are your sails?  Old sails pull sideways when on any kind of reach.  When out sailing, sight up the sail and look for a shape similar to a wing.  The belly or thickest chord of the wing should be very near the front.  If it bellys out more toward the middle your sails are probably blown out and need replacing.  That shape will pull you sideways instead of forward.

I tried using the original jib for kicks once.  Terrible -  it was so blown out and mis-shapen all I could do was broad reach or run.  Any kind of pointing led to heeling with almost no forward motion.

Below is a diagram of where the force is on old vs new sails.



Next is, when you're sailing you should be frequently pointing up to find where the sails luff and then head off just a little.  Both sails should luff about the same.  Best sailing is just off a luff.  Luffing is where the front part of the sails stalls, back winds and loses power.  It will just start flapping a little.  No one needs to even see this luffing.  It is slight and you will still make best speed.  You can do the same with easing the sheets but it is more trouble.

Third thing is you may be overpowering the rig.  If you are doing hull speed and you start heeling its probably because you have too much sail up.  It was time to reef fifteen minutes ago!
The hull can only go about 5.2 knots or so.  The extra power is going to go places you don't want.

So lets say you're sailing along and you start heeling too much.
Point up with the tiller into the wind, or let out the main and jib sheet.  In heavy winds I keep an eye on the water around me.  You'll see gusts coming, or if you are heading toward areas of gusts.  I don't cleat the jib, I hold it with two winds around the winch.  If I get hit, its always best to depower with the jib first, ease it out or just let go and let it flap, then ease the main.

Finally, in light winds you may find it helpful to sit on the leeward side for many reasons.  But in heavy winds you may want to sit to windward to balance the boat.  I have sat ontop the coaming in heavy winds to control heeling.  Those weren't gusting winds though.  In gusting winds you aren't enough to balance the boat quickly enough.

Possible but not likely, some one may have removed some ballast to make room for batteries.  The cement in my keel is even with the floor.  There is a one foot long area open for the bilge, but otherwise it is full.  The boat was designed for that ballast so it should be there.

[Ralph Erickson]

Marcus, I think you hit another nail on the head with the older sail theory.  Mine are the original sails, and although they still look great, I have no doubt that they are out of shape.  You've offered good tips, all of them, and they are much appreciated.  Sure wish there was more season left to try them out!

Ralph

[tsaiapex]

Don't forget about using the outhaul to flatten the sail and allow the top to twist.  The CP16/19/23 mail sail outhaul attachment are simply that, to attach the clew to the boom end.  They are however difficult to adjust under load.

I use a pulley block so the outhaul could be effectively tighten under load.  Keith Scott from the Sail Boat Shop used to tell me under heavy weather to stretch the outhaul till face turn blue, then stretch more.

It also has amazing effect reducing weatherhelm.

[Rick Klages]

Add a block with a Becket  to the boom end

and a single block to the clue.



Thread the outhaul through the boom mounted block then through the sail mounted block back to the Becket on the boom mounted block. Tie it off on the becket.  The other end gets cleated to the forward most boom mounted cleat.  A jamb cleat in line will make this work even better.

Result: no more blue face.  Don't rip your sails OK!

ick

[Paul]

Ralph, my redneck test methodology for your original post.
1)  Buy case of beer.
2)  Drink case with Bro'.
3)  Duct tape hatch covers in place.  (An all time great invention).  (You may want to do this before ingesting said beer.)
4)  Cleat one end of main halyard to mast.
5)  Grab other end of main halyard and pull mast to starboard until mast is horizontal. 
6)  Report your findings. 

As others have correctly posted, but stated a little differently; think lift vs. stall.  Marcus has described how to shape the sail for lift and test it for close hauled to beam reach.  Pinching is another method.  It's quite easy to create a pretty sail shape, but still sail stalled.  Creating lift by almost luffing the sails is the efficient way to head to windward.

Others feel free to add to this as needed.

As I visualize the forces acting upon a boat, I think of wings (foils):  sails, keels, rudders, even the hull itself.  I suppose this comes from flying with my Dad when I was a little kid.  He must have described how a heavy machine can fly through the air a hundred times.  Lift=flight.  Stall=death.