Bow ploughs on CP19 in choppy seas

[JohnS]

M-S,
Enjoy your vacation.
The finer points of sail trim are endlessly debated wherever sailors get together. If you were less dismissive of the points of view of others and a little more informed in your own views you would be less likely to be accused of 'talking bollocks", and a more pleasant atmosphere would prevail.

[Craig Weis]

I agree about when in doubt let it out. I always sail my boat loose. Out till it luffs. In till the luff goes away and tell tails sails aft. skip. Let the sail take a shape. Don't make it flat.

[Bob23]

   Well, This has certainly been one lively discussion and continues to be so. Lest we forget, the reason we sail is for fun...always remember that word. Although I've learned alot from reading the above posts about sail trim, mast rake, and bollocks, the one thing that can't be taught is to know how to enjoy the magic of sailing.
   This is why I don't race. I don't want to reduce the magic to minutes and seconds. I want to continue to be captivated by the ship, wind and the movement of both.
   As an aside, the other evening, I had a wonderful sail, sort of. Went out for a sunset sail, there was no wind, so I motored out in the bay, drifted and enjoyed a great sunset! Never raised any cloth but had a wonderful time. Of course, I'd rather sail than motor but the point is, great times are a-waiting but are sometimes disguised. I don't want to get to technically oriented that I forget the fun!
   Ok, now what were you guys saying about bow plow? I've never sailed a 19, but hope to soon. As far as my 23 is concerned, we get along just fine. She forgives my shortcomings as a skipper, and I try to treat her well and keep her looking sweet.
   Sorry I've strayed a bit off subject here...hope it's been informative!

[multimedia_smith]

Jon S,
Your reply to me states:    "If you were less dismissive of the points of view of others and a little more informed in your own views you would be less likely to be accused of 'talking bollocks", and a more pleasant atmosphere would prevail"

Sorry to take so long in my response, but we only recently returned from our "month of coolness" to the stifling heat that is New Orlean's Summer...
I have to admit I was put off by your reply (quoted above)... I don't think that I've ever been "accused of talking bollocks" or for that matter I can't remember myself or fellow members breaking the code of cordiality to each other in this forum... so much for creating "a more pleasant atmosphere"!

As for being "a little more informed".... I do try to offer informed points of view...  (apart from my own empirical observations) I recently came across a link that I had saved that reiterates exactly what I was trying to convey about sail shape.  As they say, there is no perfect sail shape as conditions are always changing.  Our previous discussion centered on how to de-power sails in really strong winds.  Everyone knows we want full twist and deep camber in light air, but in heavy air, flatter is better.  To achieve flatter, downward force is needed on the leech... the vang controls that on the main and sheeting position does it for the jib.

Here is a link to my source for the info:

http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/98_11_PerfectShape/Main.htm#

to quote the article:
While the heeling force grows in a quadratic manner with wind speed, the heeling is best controlled by feathering the sails (twisting the head off) and flattening them especially in the upper part. This lowers the aerodynamic center of effort, making it possible to keep the boat upright.

The article is long and has a wealth of information as does the NC sailing site... It's fun to study and then to put into practice to see what works.

Let's keep it positive and stop talkin that trash!

Dale

[Paul]

Just an FYI.

Any time I hit the link in the above message, my security software goes ballistic.  States it's a dangerous website.  I don't know much about these things, but I can assure you it's consistent.  My software has not given false positives in the past.  Has anyone else received such warnings?

Too bad, really.  It looked like it would be very informative.  Maybe it has to do with it being Finnish, who knows.

After the warning, I did read the article you linked us to, Dale.  I found a few points contrary to what I learned over the years.  That's OK.  I'm open-minded about such things.  But, I can't help but wonder if things might be lost in translation (Finnish and what not).  I'm not trying to make any weird claims here, but I do keep a skeptical eye out.

Yea, I know, my mind is open, but my eyes are skeptical.  Paradoxes abound. 

Regarding the sail trim issues, it sounds to me that John, Dale, and the quote from "The Sailboat Company" are all talking about  the same animal, but different parameters, making this discussion somewhat dead-ended.

I love the simplicities and complexities of sailing.  I know, another paradox.  But, that's part of what makes sailing so wonderful.  There are a number of books and online articles regarding sail trim.  Just remember to keep the principles in context of the given sailing environment.  (And, in English, to boot!)

[mgoller]

Well, this is a lively thread!
I have sailed both the 16 and 19 a lot.  Both boats bow down in a gust and the 16 does tend to weather helm with more force than the 19.
The 16's bow is shaped like a football.  No matter how you heel it it keeps its shape.
The 19's bow is like a dinner plate the whole way back to the keel.  There's almost no shape.  In a chop and going to windward it slaps every wave.  If the waves are about 8 feet apart the bow will ride down the wave and plow in.
I have never seen either boat ride bow down for more than a moment and its always when hit by a cold spring or autumn gust.  Might sound silly but I swear its partly due to the jib getting hit first by that gust.
I wouldn't adjust the rake.
Also, I experienced some very bad performance from my old original sails.  The people at North sails showed me the difference between old and new.  My old sails weren't pulling the boat forward.  The shape was gone and I was getting excessive heeling force.  New sails made for a new high performance old girl!
Finally, I think the 19 is designed really well for what it was intended to do.  The compromise is the slapping sometimes from that flatter bow.  I accept that over the 16's tendency to heel so much and roundup so quick.  The 16 scared the crap out of a lot of passengers in heavy weather, whereas the 19 can be very sedate and yet sail faster and point better.