new rudder and bushings

[vigsail]

Hi,
As I've recently purchased #361 (which is a great boat) I have a two questions.  First, the rudder does not fit the gudgeons and pintles perfectly -- there's quite a bit of play.  It almost seems as there should be a bushing of some-sort within the gudgeons -- is that correct?  Or, perhaps I should be using larger diamter bolts for the pintles (but that would put stainless bolts against the aluminum gudgeons which I'm sure would eventually wear out the aluminum).  Any help on that front would be appreciated.
My second question pertains to the foil rudder that I've read about on these pages -- is this something that is readily available?  More importantly, does it make a difference in terms of speed, weather-helm, etc...
Thanks again.
I'll post some pics of the new boat.  She's a beauty.
Regards.
--Mike V.

[CaptK]

Mike -

RE: the rudder - check out http://www.idasailor.com for more information, pics, etc... They are really nice, and make a noticeable difference in how the boat handles and performs.

I haven't had to do my gudgeons yet. I know others have, and have seen suggestions for what to use. That would make a good topic for a posting in the Articles section. I'll have to see what I can do about getting that info put up...

Congrats on the new boat!!!

[vigsail]

Capt. K.,
Thanks for the reply.  I'm looking into the replacement rudder -- which would probably also help the gudgeon and pintal issue.
Looking forward to the forum and so far, enjoying the boat very much.  She sail's nicely and points better than I had expected.

[Craig]

Mike,

The Idasailor rudder will not address the gudgeon and pintle question.  The rudder simply bolts to the standard rudder head.  I do not know what set up you have.  My CP 16/1 simply has bolts as pintles.

Those who have had enough wear to cause slop have reported the best solution is to have a machine shop drill the hole true and press in a bushing.

Craig

[tsaiapex]

I found stainless steel tubing from local hardware store (not Lowes or HD) that is 7/16".  I drill out the rudder post holes from 3/8" to 7/16" then insert the SS tubing and fastened with new 7/16" SS bolts with washer on both ends.

One trick, cut the SS tubing 1/16 longer than necessary so when the tubing acts as a compression sleeve.

It lasted for 18 months but costed less than $5.  I have to agree that the right way is to have machine shop press in a bushing for you.

[vigsail]

Thanks for the opinions.  I'm sure I'll try several things, probably go with the new rudder although a full season with the old might be in order.  And thanks everyone for info regarding the bushing issue etc...
---Mike

[Craig Weis]

Yes soft aluminium.  re-drilled and re-bolted using some meteric ss bolts with triple ss washers top and bottom on every surface that moves, rubs, or otherwise wears with lock/stop nuts. Put the nuts facing up, with bolt heads facing down. Works great. Also lots of "never sleeze"

[multimedia_smith]

I used some rather hard plastic light diffuser sheeting... cut, curled, and inserted the "tubes" into the sloppy holes of the ruddder gudgeon.  The stainless bolts had to actually be threaded into place the fit was so snug.
VOILA! no more shimmy in the rudder at all.  How long it will last is another question but has been going since the summer.  I really like the idea of the stainless, but I'm not wild about weakening the aluminum by reaming it out even further.

One thing about your solution sounds pretty scarey... why did you place the bolt heads down and the nuts on top?  If they were ever to come loose... (kerplunk) :twisted:  
Wouldn't it be a nice idea to have gravity working FOR you?  
Just a paranoid thought...
Dale

[Craig Weis]

The reason I put the bolt head down and the nut up is so a quick look~see over the transom will tell me if the nylok nuts have un-threaded a little bit. With nuts down I'll never know if they backed-off and I'll not be tightening anything up.

skip.

[bro t]

It just goes to show there's a "nuts-up" sailor in every fleet! :lol:

[Craig Weis]

bro t,

:wink: All in the back of my transom is re-newed and in fine working order.
~New line bored holes
~New stainless steel [318] bolts, head down
~Nylok stainless steel nuts [304], nuts up.
~Bearing and load surfaces of stainless steel [318]
~The whole casting, both parts, removed and replaced after...
...vapor blasting
...conversion coated in a five stage spray washer
...Dried in a dry-off oven
...Casting de-gassed
...powder coated paint, medium grey hammer tone polyester/epoxy
...Cured at 475 deg F. 22 minutes
Just a little side government project from work.  

[multimedia_smith]

Hi Skip,
Did you add any backing plate to the inside of the transom?
I have been considering that with both the rudder and the outboard mount.  Especially since I now have this big piece of thick flat aluminum (former rudder) leaning up against the wall in my garage.
I shudder to think of working in that tight space... the '88 doesn't have the lazerette... so I have crawled back there to run thick wires for my trolling motor and it wasn't fun.  How did you get to the nuts on  the rudder brace?   Definitely a winter project here.

Thanks Dale

[Craig Weis]

Dale
Simple, I did NOT run a backing plate between the inside of the hull and the nylock nuts of the rudder casting because when Com-Pac designed the hull a piece of plywood was glassed in as re-inforcement for the cast rudder assembly. The load is actually carried on the casting, not the hull or nuts and bolts. So the nuts do not need to go back on super tight. Additionally same type of ply is used for pulpits, swim ladder area of attachement, and all other deck/hull attachements.

To remove the rudder casting I used a Vice-Grip on each of the four nuts. I happen to have about a half dozen vise grips, so I snapped one on each flat of a nut.

Yes, it is a bit of a squeeze. I stripped down to one sweat shirt [in November] and skinnied in on my back up-over the mid-ship birth on the port side, till my head hit the transom. I had all four snap clamps, flashlight in the mouth, and with care had the clamps snugged down on the flats of the nuts in no time.

Standing on the road outside of the boat with my electric drill and nut driver I slowly backed the bolts out till I hear each Vise Grip fall with the nut.

Hint: It is necessary to heat the casting and hull from the outside with an electric paint stripping gun, till you can not touch the area around the bolts with a finger. That's about 160 deg F. Once hot, beat the casting right to left with a rubber mall [hammer] till the casting becomes loose. Prise-off. You will see dabs of 3-M 5200 around the bolt holes. Leave it alone, it is very flat and won't mess anything up during re-assembly.

After re-condictioning the cast pieces I had the wife drive the bolts back through the existing holes, with 3-M 5200 slow cure goop, while I was back inside with a proper open end wrench for the nuts. Not too tight. You don't want to pull the the nuts through the ply and glass, nor do we want to 'bend the casting' with too much torque. Remove excess goop before it dries.

Be easy. The 3-M 5200 would actually hold the casting without bolting. But you have to hold the casting up while the 5200 cures in a couple of days

[vigsail]

Sounds like a fun job!  Any pictures that you could share with those of us with similar problems?
Thanks.

[Craig Weis]

I have pics and I'd love to share them. The hitch is that I'm not scanner savey nor very atuned to 'putting' pics on the web I may run some pics over to my buddy and have Mr. Ritter show me how to do this task.

BTW, It took me one whole Sunday to do the Sturgeon Bay pic on our pic site. I also loaded up about 12 more pics but not-a-one showed up on the site. Beats me.

skip.