Basic PC questions

[passagesfromtheheart]

Hi, I've been considering a Picnic Cat as a choice option for solo sailing. Firstly, I am an experienced sailor on inland lakes and consider myself to be in fairly "good shape" for my age (pushing 60), however, I'm no spring chicken. In other words, I'm not looking for "athletic sailing" adventures (e.g., Sunfish, Lasers, etc.). I've seen some videos of folks sailing their PCs and things look fairly tame onboard, even in some sporty conditions out on the water. I'd consider myself a conservative sailor, I always reef early, and I'm diligent about checking weather, several times, prior to setting out on the water as well as while out on the water. That said, I live in an area where "pop-up storms" are a frequent occurrence, and those, therefore, are not always/consistently predictable/foreseen. My question is, what is the likelihood of a capsize in these vessels? Has anyone heard of this happening and if so, how easy is it to right the boat? I do not believe there is positive flotation in these boats, if memory serves? Also, with respect to launching and retrieving on the trailer as a solo sailor, I'm assuming this  typically goes fairly smoothly for a smaller-sized boat? I would be sailing on inland lakes with the boat.

Thank you for your feedback!

[bruce]

When I saw this post my first thought was are you trying to have owned every Com-Pac boat? More power to you if you are!

We've owned our PC since 2010. We went to the Annapolis Boat Show that year with a list of about 30 boats to check out. Decided a catboat was a good fit for us, and after comparing it with, and test sailing, the other two catboats in production around the same size, the Marshall 15 and Menger 15, decided on the PC. We planned on berthing the boat routinely in our garage, and it had to be easily trailered. We might have gone with a Sunday Cat, or SC Daysailer if they'd have fit, but the PC has been great.

To answer your questions, any unbalasted small centerboard boat can capsize. I own the Picnic Cat Group dislist on groups.io and have attached a pdf of three known events. Patrick Holman is a well-known videographer in Bonaire, specializing in stories about local boatbuilders. He knows boats in general. He replaced his PC with a 21-foot Saffier 6.5, a fixed keel boat better suited to his waters. He converted the PC to a motor launch for his wife to use with friends. I know him well enough to say he clearly didn't doubt the sea worthiness of the PC.

The second story was about Dick Herman. He went on to sail his SC, Muddy Duck, for years. The third sailor I didn't know of, and since have learned he likely was the least experienced. I've heard of a couple of other capsizes, both preventable operator error.

Recovery of any catboat will be difficult. The broad beam provides stability, but once it goes over it will be difficult to flip back up. The wide hull will catch the wind resisting recovery. The PC has generous freeboard, making it a dry boat, but again more windage. The CB weighs about 70 lbs. and once inverted and it falls back in the hull can be difficult to pull out. I've attached a lanyard on mine, that trails under the boat, but it's still a heavy lift.

There was a thread on the PCG distlist about mounting a mast float to aid in recovery. The consensus was, amongst more experienced sailors, that it likely wouldn't make the difference in conditions likely to cause the capsize, i.e. heavy winds and seas.

There is minimal floatation installed on the stock PC. I, and many others, use Optimist floatation bags. The layout is described on p. 82 of Ed Seinfeld's Catboat Sailing manual. I think this link will work. Lots of good PC info in Ed's manual.
https://groups.io/g/PicnicCat/files/Catboat%20Guide%20and%20Sailing%20Manual/Sailing%20manual%20150523.pdf

Launch and recovery couldn't be easier. Com-Pac really focused on this, especially in their catboats. It won't take more than 5-10 minutes, unless the onlookers distract you too much with questions and admiration. The gaff rig means a short mast that doesn't extend much beyond the transom when folded down. No need to step the mast. The sail stays rigged. We'd watched plenty of sailboats at the ramp before purchasing the PC, and didn't want to deal with that.

I'll conclude with something my sailor friend passed on. He's owned several boats, including a PC, and found that a small boat was so sensitive to crew weight distribution that it was often more difficult to single hand than his Catalina 27. Go forward to the mast and the trim is seriously effected.

[passagesfromtheheart]

Hi, Bruce ~

Thank you so much for your reply and all of the fantastic information -- it's so appreciated!

Ha ha, yes, you're so right -- I guess you could say that I have, indeed, owned a lot of different Com-Pac models! :-D Well, technically actually only three -- the Legacy, 23, and the 25.

In my defense, I do so LOVE Com-Pacs and had aspirations -- and blessings from Gerry Hutchins, himself -- to become a Com-Pac dealer, but the chain of events the past year for me, personally, and, of course, with respect to Com-Pac have made that dream unattainable, very sadly.

In my defense again, I'll also say that I've sure "learned by doing" quite a bit with respect to the Legacy, 23, and 25. But, in addition to that, I've, unfortunately, had health issues that've come up within recent years which have caused me to rethink how sailing can still be a part of my life.

One said 'thing' is that I've learned is that with respect to sailing, things need to be more manageable independent of outside help -- we live in, pretty much, what I'd call a 'dead zone' where sailing is concerned. Not much of a sailing community in these parts, and no professional help either. That's one reason why we decided to try the 25 -- to be near a maritime area (Lake Superior) with more of a sailing community and access to professional services for the many things that exceed our scope of knowledge and skillsets.

Anyhow, to make a very long story shorter, the Com-Pac models which offer the hinged mast - MasTender system appeal to me, especially. A smaller boat now also appeals to me/us, more so, now as well. There are many other factors I could mention, but I won't bore you with the details.

In recent weeks, I've seen a couple of very nice PCs come up for sale - I've sort of been keeping an eye out for something I could sail on the closer-by inland lakes, independent of the First Mate's help. A smaller boat like the PC fits that bill and hence my interest. If I were younger and healthier, I'd go for a Laser - my dream boat when I was a spry young teenager!

Also, cat boats have been on my radar the past five years. I initially was looking at Sunday Cats and Sun Cats in late 2020 and ultimately due to price, mostly, and my worry about never having sailed a gaff-rigged sailboat before, I decided to go with the Legacy. Which is a fabulous boat, too, but I admit there is a romantic sort of quality that cat boats exude which intrigues me considerably. I talked to the owners at Marshall and Areys Pond some years ago -- great folks and they helped me with the various questions I had about cat boats. There are also some excellent cat boat websites I peruse to tickle the fancy every now and then. I almost bought a Sanderling a few years ago and decided, ultimately, against it because I was freaked out about the ballast situation -- the 'not fixed' ballast as I learned from the owner at Marshall.

The above all said, over the last several years of having sailing in my life again, I've learned independence is what's most important. With the 23 and 25, I cannot attain the level of independence I/we seek. Relying on others for help at/from our marinas has shown us that there may be a better way to enjoy sailing more so -- with boats which are better suited for maintaining indpendently to the extent that we can; without relying on others to help step masts, work on diesel engines, etc.

I am currently selling my 23 and the 25 will likely soon be for sale as well. The Legacy is, of course, manageable for us and a keeper, though I admit I'm unable to step her mast on my own. I am grateful for the experiences all of these boats have given to me -- to us. They are -- like other Com-Pac boats -- incredible boats, for sure!

[bruce]

Don't stress about the gaff rig, you'll quickly learn how to deal with it. I like Bill Welch's book, The Competitive Catboat. Some on racing, mostly just how to sail a catboat well. The book is based on his Marshall Sandpiper 15.
https://www.billwelchmd.net/the-competitive-cat.html

I've made several modifications to mine, but that's me. The stock boat is fine, many don't feel the need to change. The Mastendr system is great, simple and does the job. Not as well-engineered as the Marshall hinge, but the Marshall pin-in-socket hinge fits so tightly it can be difficult to open at times. You have to lift the mast to free the pin to allow the mast to fold down. Geoff Marshall advised against doing that routinely after every sail, rather seasonally with the boat on a slip, when we test sailed a Sandpiper with him.

Many small catboats lack good benches and you're sitting directly or only slightly above the cockpit sole. The PC has comfortable benches and great storage, typically very dry. The boom is set high, clearing most noggins. This does come at the loss of some sail area. Half a reef always set. The PC could easily handle 150 sq. ft., I line with competitors, but does fine with the 109 sq. ft. it has. Below 5 pts of wind it's slow going, but the boat does ghost around pretty well. My wife never did adventure, so we'd stay home if winds were expected much above 18 kts. Predictions sometimes don't work out of course. I've never felt unsafe in our boat, being most cautious on a run with a strong breeze and some surfing potential. A boom vang is helpful in those situations, and it keeps the boom from bouncing when sailing into a chop and depowering when you want the rig to push through.

Since you've got some leads locally I'd pay them a visit right away. Even if you can't arrange for a test sail, you should be able to raise the mast and see how manageable that is, and check out the layout of the cockpit to see if it works for you. With your experience, you'll be able to get a sense of how it will feel and handle underway.

Good luck!

[Cpy23ecl]

This is an interesting and timely thread as I too am seriously contemplating going to a picnic cat after I sell my Eclipse.  I first owned a 23 and then decided I wanted something that was easier to trailer sail so ordered a new Eclipse.  I found that I've not trailer sailed as expected and the first mate doesn't like the lack of side decks to get to the bow. 

Last fall we bought a c-dory 16 power boat but I still want to sail so am now planning to take a close look at the picnic cat.

[bruce]

As much as we like our PC, and you are both experienced sailors, I think it's good to remind a less experienced reader that you need to match the boat to your sailing grounds. We sail well up in Narragansett Bay, isolated from ocean swells with maybe a knot of tidal current max except in very constricted passes. We do have an open fetch to the prevailing wind, and on summer afternoons can have sea breezes build to the lower 20s. If against the current, a significant chop can build. The coast is well defined, with some elevation, so the breeze does bend around the shore and structures. So, it's more like big lake sailing than ocean. In more sporty conditions we'll duck in the lee of the windward shore to get out of the fetch, unfortunately the ramp is usually a bouncy downwind run away.

Newport, on the ocean, is about 15 miles to the south, close enough to trailer to easily, but too exposed to ocean swells, winds, and currents for comfortable sailing in the PC, IMO. It could be done of course, but weather predictions aren't always accurate. I sometimes rent a J/22 with a more experienced sailing buddy for a day sail out of Newport. For a trip to Martha's Vineyard, an island 12 miles off the southern Mass coast, or 5 miles from Cape Cod, I'd really rather be on a Horizon Cat than a Sun Cat.

[Cpy23ecl]

Boats are just like with engines, there's no replacement for displacement when things get tough.

[passagesfromtheheart]

Bruce, you're the best -- thank you so very much for all of your words of wisdom -- for sharing your experiences with your PC and where you sail her! So much I've learned from you doing so! Cannot express enough gratitude!

This situation reminds me of another passion of mine that has evolved over my years of growing older. I used to competitively ride hunter/jumper show horses as a 'younger human.' Unfortunately, a diagnosis of BPPV (debilitating vertigo) forced (gave me the opportunity?) to switch from riding horses to driving/carting Miniature horses. Not having horses in my life was unacceptable to me as horses are in my blood (as is sailing) and so Miniature horses it was -- and still is, to this day.

Anyhow, it's like this with sailing. Giving up on sailing would be, in essence, giving up on myself...of who I am. But, I have to be strong enough and realistic enough with myself to understand that as I have aged and my body has changed, it means that to continue to enjoy my passions and 'be who I am,' I have to be willing, more than ever, to adapt. I feel that moving to a vessel like the PC (or maybe a Sun Cat) will allow me, afford me the opportunities to still keep sailing, but also sailing without the...um, burdens?...that sometimes 'bigger boats' might have. Not to mention, literally, affordability. Not having to lease a slip or a mooring; having to pay exorbitant amounts of money to maintain larger boats. Which is totally cool if that what's one heart desires. But, I've learned my heart is, more so, breaking as a result of these things. Especially spending money at marinas in which the environment is really not my cup of tea (that's another story).

I can see myself in my mind's eye -- to use your words -- ghosting along out on the water in my lil' PC. Feeling the breeze enough to make my spirits soar, but not raise the hairs on the back of my neck. :-) Sailing isn't always rainbows and unicorns, I realize, too, and we should always be in the ready of over preparation for the unexpected. But, boy, when those unicorn and rainbows moments gift me...I am in heaven, no doubt.

Thank you, again, Bruce, for all of the wonderful details you've shared -- so cannot thank you enough. And, Fred -- I think this PC is really close to you -- she's in Lake Geneva -- you're in northern Illinois, right? Here is the link, in case you'd like to check her out (I talked to the seller -- not the person who listed the boat on Facebook, but she will put you in touch with the seller - his name is Jack):

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2159811541123263/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A9d96767b-8b5e-4a8c-b06d-279219850301

[bruce]

Thanks for the kind words. If you want further input on the the PC and it's suitability for you please let me know, on list or off.

We too are facing new challenges. I've been a primary caregiver in the past, for my wife's parents and my own, and my aunt, all who lived with us at the end. I won't go into details, but I'm again the primary caregiver, this time it's even harder. I hope we'll be able to sail again, but that may not be possible.

Take care. We've got to play the hand we're dealt as best we can.

[crazycarl]

Im not in the market for another boat, but that price is tempting.

[passagesfromtheheart]

Bruce, oh my goodness — I'm so sorry to hear you're facing difficult situations as well. I hope everything will resolve in a manner such that you and your wife can get back out sailing soon. Sending support and positive thoughts your way — as well as fair winds.

Carl, I agree re: the price on that PC — love that dark green hull, too. Seller told me he has a brand new sail for the boat, too.

[Jon898]

I've had my PC for a quarter of a century now!  Great boat for small lakes and sheltered waters.  Not sure I'd be too comfortable in the ocean.

All of the sailing has been either single-handed or with one very inexperience crew (so essentially single-handed).

As with all small boats, trim is greatly affected by the location of the moveable ballast (you).  When I changed from an old Yugoslavian outboard to using a MinnKota trolling motor, that change required adding a deep cycle battery which I secured just forward of the centerboard trunk below deck.  The change from a motor hanging off the stern to a heavy battery just aft of the mast helped enormously with the trim, and she only drags her stern if I sit all the way aft.

There is no built-in flotation, and swamping/capsize has always been in the back if my mind, particularly since the cockpit locker hatches are not exactly well secured as-delivered.  I have a link on my desktop to a supply of Opti flotation bags, but have never got around to doing that.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the gaff rig being different from a masthead rig.  It actually provides the possibility of more controls (try scandalizing a masthead rig), and you get more difference with the cat rig as heaving-too is a new maneuver entirely.

Enjoy the search!

Jon

[passagesfromtheheart]

Hi, Jon!

Thank you for chiming in on this thread and sharing your thoughts/experiences with your PC. That is so cool you've had your boat 25 years! Wow!!!

I suppose I'd be inclined to opt for adding the flotation bags if I were to get a PC, so I think I'll do a bit more digging into that to see how folks set these up. Bruce, I think you mentioned doing this as well, so I will look back to the info you shared on it. I guess it would give me some peace of mind that if events should happen such that the boat goes over - I wouldn't want to lose the boat.

I guess this topic has really been on my mind as, last night, I had a dream that my Hobie cat sailboat sank in her slip (I don't even have a Hobie cat!) and I later retrieved her - but, man, it was an odd dream! I could psychoanalyze that one all to you-know-what, but I won't go there here. :-D

Thanks, again, Jon, for sharing!